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    Learning to communicate with other species

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    Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by Ren's View on Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:55 am

    I ran across this interesting study that demonstrated that horses are capable of learning to use symbols intentionally.  The study involved first teaching them symbols, then using the symbols as a form of questioning, from which horses can then answer questions intentionally -- intentionally being the operative here.  This to me is meaningful in a larger context, because horses are generally trained behaviorally, that is, through various behavior modification techniques, to do as they are bid by the humans.

    Horses can use symbols to talk to us

    Highlights of the study:


    • Horses can learn to use symbols boards for communication with humans.

     

    • Horses could tell if they wanted a blanket put on or taken off, or stay unchanged.



    • Speed of learning varied.

      

    • All horses performed well within 2 weeks of training.



    • Training was successful for 23/23 horses of various age and breeds.


    This, to me, correlates with the institutionalizing of humans in complex societies, and the institutionalizing mindset that results. It would seem to me, then, that this mindset evolution is an integral part of an authoritarian mindset that then pervades human consciousness when bound up with institutions in complex societies. 

    So here's how I get a surviving institutions correlation with this topic of communicating with horses:


    • Animals are part of an institutionalizing process that has become agriculture itself, where animals and plants are put under a controlled system for the purpose of humans. 



    • As institutions expand to include human participants within the system, then all the species within the system are behaviorally modified towards behaving according to the requirements and purposes of whatever system they are taking part in. 



    • Both the possibility that horses can think for themselves and decide what they want humans to do for them, as shown in the study, and the possibility that humans can think for themselves and decide how they want a institution to work for them coexist, though neither are generally part of most institutional behavioral settings.  Humans are controlled and directed to perform tasks by managers, just as horses are controlled and directed to perform tasks by humans.  Now in both cases, its quite obvious that the actual tasks involve some sort of volition on the part of both the humans and the horses.  What's critical to me is the interaction between task performers, their volitional possibilities, and the managers, be they managers of horses or humans.


    What I would like to see is a break down in the rigidity of institutional authoritarian structures. I'm suggesting this in light of the question I've asked about surviving our ruling institutions.  To survive them, if we can see they are going awry and taking us over that cliff or down a slippery slope to a cataclysmic event, we need either to step out of them, or be able to change them. 

    While the issue of free will on the part of horses or humans may come up as an outside question, it generally will not be encouraged, nor allowed within the workings of an institutional system.  Yet, without the interaction of free will, the institution is bound to be impervious to the insights of those who are deemed too low on the scale to make management level decisions.

    But clearly, even horses are capable of deciding for themselves what they need.  And they are capable of telling their related humans what that is, if we bother to learn how to communicate.

    All of that is related to the broader question of brainwashing, which I'll bring up in another thread.
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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by dleet on Tue Oct 11, 2016 3:19 am

    I wonder if the dolphins upon experiencing toxic ocean changes will sound what would be an alarm if humans listened, and not a canary thing, their actions are just reflexive. Sad expressions have been well known in the moms of calves kidnapped for seaworld marine prisons, plantations, and dolphin minstrel shows. Dolphins also were amazed and well aware of their reflections when mirrors were introduced. Killer whales are actually dolphins too but Killer and Whale are better stage names.
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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by dleet on Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:25 pm

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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by Ren's View on Tue Oct 11, 2016 5:18 pm


    After giving some thought to the nature of my original post once located here, I've decided it goes too far off the rails from the topic to remain.  Truth be told, though once I was fascinated by the academic arguments in neural linguistics, I think they are irrelevant to my interests these days, and especially irrelevant to the topic of this thread.  So bye bye post.

    I do think the subject of the two egos, that is, Wolfe's and Anderson's, in the above article, actually may have some bearing on the thread topic.  That subject is Daniel L. Everett and his book, Language: The Cultural Tool.  I think he's opened up an interesting door into the nature of our efforts to communicate, both within our species and potentially outside it.  There is a refreshing holism to his approach, whether it satisfies the rigors of academia or not.

    I'd be more than happy to talk about that if anyone wants to bother to look into what Everett is saying.


    Last edited by Ren's View on Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by ogun on Fri Oct 14, 2016 6:56 am

    All animals have their own language they understand readily amongst themselves. In the instance of what I'll term (for lack of a better word) the more social animals, I'll use dogs for example, that have had a close relationship with man for a long time people are more and more trying to learn their language rather than simply dictating our own terms to them. In other words, as a social animal even when amongst only their own the dog is always communicating with each other in their own language, with us as we have become their social order they do the same. We just haven't been receptive and only treat them like  the pigeons in some famous study or other of teaching the birds to play ping pong for food (er, while with clipped wings I believe).

    A universal language among different species? Yes, at a primal level.


    Last edited by ogun on Fri Oct 14, 2016 6:59 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : heck if I know)
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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by Ren's View on Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:35 am

    Greetings, ogun, and welcome!

    I think you captured the spirit of my pompously presented first post when you say:


    ogun wrote:

    In other words, as a social animal even when amongst only their own the dog is always communicating with each other in their own language, with us as we have become their social order they do the same. We just haven't been receptive and only treat them like  the pigeons in some famous study or other of teaching the birds to play ping pong for food (er, while with clipped wings I believe).


    I'm sure you mean "we" as a species, because you show in your words a greater sensitivity in the way you notice these things.

    I have seen a lot of variation within our species in this receptiveness, or lack thereof, towards other species.  The very nature of the horse study I cited in the OP was out of the institutional mindset that I'm concerned about when I talk about surviving our ruling institutions. 

    That laboratory mindset, which sets itself up as objective, rationally problem solving, can actually look quite stupid (to me, anyway) when put into play in the natural environment where we really do have to survive and interact at many levels, including our ability to communicate -- however we want to look at that.  What we call science is really just a thought tool we've invented to solve technical problems, but because it has been so successful, especially in the past two hundred years, in helping the species to adapt to a variety of niches, and expand our presence within them, it has become elevated in value. Unfortunately, at the same time certain members of our species have become convinced we are at war with, and we are separate from the environment.  I think that attitude is integral to the modern institutional mindset.

    Personally I think that may be a mistake.  The scientific method tends to move away from those other aspects of our human capacities, like feelings, empathy, intuition, common sense, and a few others that may not even have ways of describing them.  When I immerse myself in nature, that's when I rediscover all that.

    Anyway, that's my view.  What do you think about it?

    As an afterthought, a friend of mine sent me a link to this yesterday. An article about the book titled below, and within a link to the book:


    The Hidden Life of Trees: What They Feel, How They Communicate—Discoveries from a Secret World by Peter Wohleben



    But Wohlleben’s own career began at the opposite end of the caring spectrum. As a forester tasked with optimizing the forest’s output for the lumber industry, he self-admittedly “knew about as much about the hidden life of trees as a butcher knows about the emotional life of animals.” He experienced the consequence of what happens whenever we turn something alive, be it a creature or a work of art, into a commodity — the commercial focus of his job warped how he looked at trees.


    Sometimes someone within the institutional mindset does wake up to their surroundings.

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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by ogun on Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:53 am

    Ugh, I've been meaning to get back to this for quite some time, but it has seemed every instance I sat down and tried to whittle out any feelings on it I'd run into a block or find an excuse not to post a word. I know why and have known from the beginning the source of my reluctance and almost didn't add my two cents worth to begin with. But I did and now can't leave it alone, it preys on my mind for some reason. I will however endeavor to stay away from my personal and spiritual connections ( trees are a good example, so no stories of what I've learned, or rather more correctly I guess, have felt from the longest living members amongst the varied forest of life).
     Eh so to kick myself in ass, where goes. 
    If I catch your drift correctly Ren. I don't think your far wrong in likening the training of animals (say dogs, seals, elephants or whales) to the institutional training that begins at the time a person is born and re-enforced continually until the day they return to whence they came. I think one name for it is the Stockholm syndrome. Myself I call it the learned helplessness response. Given only one comfortable way out almost all will choose the one path left open for them to follow where ever that path may lead.

    Promise to get back. Gotta run just now.
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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by Ren's View on Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:36 am

    k allen wrote me that you were having technical difficulties with one of my Watching Apocalypse sites.  Don't know which one.  Figured that might be one of the problems with this site. Technical difficulties. Trying to communicate with people through words on the internet is like trying to pick up an octopus with chopsticks sometimes.  Then add technical difficulties.  Amazing that we bother at all.

    I've never been a proponent for the notion that we can communicate facts with our human languages.  I have serious doubts that we have a capacity for language making just so we can create a reproduction of the world in a factual way.  One of the big arguments I have with our modern day societies based on these utterly rational technologies we call institutions is that they are based on the rational notion that we can, indeed, communicate factually with each other.   And, yes, the effect on me has been like that, pretty much throughout my life, especially early on in the education institutional settings, that is, I'm immersed in a kind of Stockholm syndrome, where I get sucked into the illusion of factuality, while in my own existential reality, the world is much more about my feelings and empathetic responses to what I see and try to relate with, which are in the rational mode considered subjective, and therefore, when in the Stockholm Syndrome mode, to be dismissed. 

    I have had to rebel against that over and over and over.  Once I consciously rebelled, it became easier to recognize when I needed to. I mean by that, I had plenty of rebellious reactions early in life, I suspect that's what happens for many of us, but they weren't very conscious, and they weren't done very strategically, so I got myself in a lot of trouble early on.  Naturally, when I was getting in trouble with those management figures from institutions, the entire maze of Skinner Boxian, carefully planned paths leading to the big Reward would come down on me, and I, like anyone in pain, would choose the path of least pain (if one was available, sometimes there isn't and it's a double bind) that generally leaves me in the world of the institutional kidnappers who want to form my mind to be like theirs. So, I've come to realize, rebelling is something I have to keep doing with every single contact I have with civilization, and I have to do it smarter than those who want to keep me trapped. 

    What I recognized that set me off, finally (I was like, 12 or so), was that the most important relationships I have with the world are dismissed as irrelevant when I go out into this madness we have created (and we all conspire to create it by joining these institutional structures and adapting to this planet through them).

    Once I began to think in the language of ecology (which I discovered in the early 70s), I found it much easier to distance myself from the form of thought that creates that joining-the-madness syndrome.  It's really helped me get through this latest round of political charades, for instance.  Of course, that does not help relieve me from my sense of concern about the other species on this planet who I feel so much in touch with, perhaps through whatever medium of communication is being suggested by these thoughts I've touched on in this thread.  I don't know. They are only thoughts.  And for me, thoughts are like something out of quantum mechanics, they are complicated, multidimensional metaphors for something we can in very complex way sense, that's real, but which we can never fully elucidate and share with language, so then, I have to remember, our sharing itself remains abstract.  But somewhere in all that is also the language of trees, and the language of packs of wolves, and of mushrooms, and...

    Does that make any sense?

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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by ogun on Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:40 am

    I'm not sure those problems were with the site ren., I'm thinking they were on my end probably with my settings on this idiot machine I'm on now. Otherwise I would've gotten back to you about it ren.
     Sorry for the interruption I've had a what I guess could be called something of a disaster here about 5 days ago so I now find myself in the middle of some of the very institutions I've manage to avoid my entire life. I admit I don't know much about the way these institutions 'pretend' to be structured, but what I do know is how efficient they like to think they are. And yet it seems they depend on a nobody like me to tell the left hand what the right is doing even within their own orginization.
    I should probably forget about any serious discussion or writing until this all blows over but I'm going a little stir crazy right now just waiting..... waiting ...... waiting ....... for these guys to get off the pot.

    You have to admit though ren the human creature hasn't done too bad a job with these (in our case) oddly joined 26 characters we continually use, abuse and manipulate for communicating ideas, facts and even feelings. Granted, some are much better at it than others but over all I think it may be the one true accomplishment the human can brag about. Too bad it seems to have gone to his head and has excluded everything else and thus making the species apart from the natural world. In the end though you're right ren the human needs real face to face interaction to communicate. We are like all the other social animals in nature, we depend on body language maybe more than the actual words that may be strung together in any random order that could possibly make sense without the visual but is just as likely to be complete gibberish to us without the physical presence of the speaker.
     This particular art form of the written language is something I've sorely neglected over the years........

    ugh, institution calls again.......later.
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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by Ren's View on Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:47 am

    I hear you.  I've recently had to force myself to walk into the VA institutional nightmare in order to become medically legal to walk around here in the U.S. We've gone from you can't drive without insurance to you can't be alive without insurance.  Everything you wrote applies to what I've been through for the past year and a half. And it's a dead heat on a merrygoround.  After a year and a half, a bunch of different tests, an invasive biopsy that was as romantic as a root canal, all having the effect of intimidating the hell out of me, they proclaim me to be healthier than a 40  year old.  Now there is a bunch of different disconnected elements within the VA trying to bill me for some sort co pay issues because they didn't get the message I'm in an income bracket that doesn't do co pay. So I'm not free of it yet, and I'm still doing paperwork. Yeah, that's institutional bureaucracy.  Healthy was how I felt when it all started and I reluctantly entered the system.  And why I wouldn't have bothered.  If I ever get this gummy bear paper work closed out, I will ignore them until the day I mercifully drop dead.

    Now that the election charade has ended, I'm hoping to entice some of those who have joined this site to get into it a little bit.  There are now ten of us.  I have promises from a few others to come sign up and get into it.  Good intentions and life's priorities don't always mix well. I think even at Thom's there were seldom more than ten participating at any given time.  We could have some fun talking about things. But not everyone views the art of writing as fun.

    I'm making you all moderators, in case you haven't noticed.  I'm trying to avoid all forms of hierarchical authoritarian structures.  (Yeah, well, yes, I'm the only administrator. True. That's a technical problem.  I can't give those capacities to anyone that floats to our door through the Internet ether.  I have to acknowledge the reality of who can get on this site at the moment, and I am well aware of some really nasty creatures floating around, creatures who could seriously screw things up with access to the Administration Panel.  I mean, after all, didn't the electorate just elect an Internet comment troll to the Presidency? That Administration Panel includes the codes for a nuclear weapons launch. I hope we can avoid that here.)

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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by ogun on Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:43 am

    And so now the saga seems to be becoming an epic tale of battle. Friday I thought a break through had been made and things were on the way to being all on their own. Thus making of themselves whatever it is they feel is their appropriate conclusions without me. But nooooo, somehow I managed to end up between two different parties that have some kind of grudge match going against each other. So the last two days has found me devising various schemes of how to get around at lest one of them to start afresh come Monday morning when all the doors of institution once again open to, ahem, 'welcome' us all into it's warm embrace. 
    I find it's a very strange wilderness with very odd creatures I've found myself lost in and with not many touch stones of guidance for this nomad. Though I know I'll make it through this odyssey somehow, because I'll be damned if I'll parish in the middle of the parched desert of institutions, I would just like it to end......like day before yesterday. None of it holds anything of meaning for me other than I understand it's what eating up the world. Eating peoples hearts, their vision and even their very souls leaving only empty humanoids with a set of internal instructions for marching through the next 24 hours to a reset for the repeating cycle in a sad morbid retelling of 'Groundhog Day' for there is no happy ending to their story. Indeed, learned helplessness in all it's splendor and glory as there is no way out for them. Each one sealed their own individual fate when however old they happened be at the time turned away leaving the stream that flows through and connects all life here on earth behind, because I do believe that each person at some time in their life does come to a place on the bank the stream of life has carved. Behind is the sterile desert they know and following the stream is an unknown. Almost all return to the known discomfort of no escape.

    Ah, I promise for my next relapse I'll get back to communication. K.allen mentioned in a post awhile back wondering if there was a single note or beat in the musical scale as part of a universal language amongst all creatures. I've been kinda intrigued by the idea since.
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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by Ren's View on Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:30 pm

    You have a very artful and poetic way of describing the nightmare.  These things are consuming life itself. 

    I would have never thought to ask that question. k allen can be in tune with some very odd things, and that often leads to something to think about.  I enjoy that.
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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by k. allen on Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:37 am

    ... well, I'm not quite ready to join these conversations in depth ... I see my name mentioned here, so might as well step in to say hello.

    Thanks for hosting this forum, ren - already, I know it will be a challenge to follow all the links and references that crop up here (dleet (!)) - I wonder what ideas will grow in this fertile ground.

    I trust you are familiar with the work of Monty Roberts?  He wrote "The Man Who Listens To Horses".  He is helping to awaken us (especially those who distinguish themselves as "trainers") to the ways horses (and other animals) communicate ... and how humans can cultivate sensitive/responsive ways of interacting and inviting cooperation, rather than abusive, oppressive methods of training.

    I doubt there is a living thing that does not communicate, somehow.
    For me, connecting with other species is a matter of sensitivity and response deeper than linguistic mastery, reflecting in basic energy, movement, posture and eye contact (or not), and tone of voice.

    Communication within the human species seems to present more complex challenges ... we so easily misinterpret and misunderstand what others mean by what they say ... especially in this one dimensional medium of the printed word.  Here's an example:


    (ogun)
    "K.allen mentioned in a post awhile back wondering if there was a single note or beat in the musical scale as part of a universal language amongst all creatures. I've been kinda intrigued by the idea since."

    Hi ogun, good to see you here.  I don't recall suggesting there might be a _single_ note or beat of that nature ... more, that we might look for a root frequency of which all these different life forms, or characteristics within species, reflect as harmonics.

    You'd have to go all the way deep to perceive such a fundamental ground of resonance that would reflect such a full spectrum of frequencies ... I have no doubt you would find varying fields of harmony and dissonance throughout ... probably not perceivable as single notes/beats, but more, as relationships between root tones and harmonics ... I don't know, but it does seem possible that if one reaches for deeper root tones, one may find greater fields of harmonic resonance between conflicting energies.

    Does that make sense to anyone?


    (Ren's view)
    "I would have never thought to ask that question. k allen can be in tune with some very odd things, and that often leads to something to think about.  I enjoy that."

    ..., well, I know I am off the grid - always have been.  And, all my life, people have laughed and made fun of me for being weird. So, I guess I can live with 'odd' ... though, more truly, I would say, 'awed'.

    Ok.  Entrance made.  I have to go ... will follow conversations when able ... peace within - one breath at a time, ka
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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by Ren's View on Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:55 pm

    Welcome to this environment, k allen.

    Last first to clear up any misconceptions:

    k allen wrote:

    .., well, I know I am off the grid - always have been.  And, all my life, people have laughed and made fun of me for being weird. So, I guess I can live with 'odd' ... though, more truly, I would say, 'awed'.


    I personally like odd. I am logically inclined to, because it's obvious looking back at all the messes I've created in social situations, that I am generally the odd one, and the often odd-one-kicked-out because most people prefer the calm of conformity rather than the confounding contradictions that the oddity brings to their sensory perceptions.  'Sensory' can also be metaphorical for the mythicalized belief systems people carry around as their version of the world.  So, since I prefer to like myself rather than agree to despise myself in order to conform, I am inclined to like what I am, which is odd.  Think of what the term "like" really means.  The ugly duckling myth, for instance.  The poor thing was not like the other ducks.  It was different. It was a misplaced swan.

    Regarding that slightly offset reference of mistaking a mythologized belief for a sensory perception, I note that humans may be the only species that does that on a regular basis and often at an elevated level in their various complex societies.  And I could now go off on a rant about how society is a macrocosm of conflict created by sets of invested beliefs in a mythological reality that come up against many sensory perceptions of reality in the moment.  I think it may be very odd to notice that, and that is why when I point it out in a group situation I generally have to run.

    I'm sure that won't be clear from one brief attempt to express a very complex way of seeing the world I've been developing over a life time in a few sentences.  But if anyone wants to go into it, I'm well prepared to make an attempt at clarifying what I mean.

    Now, related to that, but perhaps not obvious from the words, is this notion you've raised of a harmonic resonance at a deeper level that runs through life.

    It's kind of like that problem they've raised in quantum physics... about the nature of light.

    What is light? was asked at some point, and in their struggle to claim to know, some folks, now known as quantum physicists, saw that if measured one way it was a particle, and another a wave.  So understanding light involved a process of rational measurement.  But that process created an answer that was an infinite conundrum... a contradiction.  Light can be everywhere all at once in the universe, and it can be somewhere as a particle.  But what light actually is may be beyond any rational effort to know.

    But I feel -- sense at my intuitive best -- that the human mind is not a computer, as is popular to assume these days.  Much popular entertainment is generated on that basis.  Which can be a little problematic when people assume entertainment reflects reality as well. So we find it's popular these days to take for granted that a human mind can be downloaded like so much data on a hard drive and preserved for a future biologically or mechanically constructed computer with an equally complex operating system as capable as the organism we now call our body/mind to host it.  But I doubt the human mind is like that at all.  I think it's much more like this conundrum from quantum physics.  We humans are quite capable of living with many of the undefinable contradictions of the world, because, for us, light can be both a particle somewhere and a wave everywhere at the same time.

    So I'll leave it at that.
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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by k. allen on Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:49 pm

    I do hear what you are saying, ren, at least in part ... just today I ran across this quote:


    "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives.”
    - Tolstoy

    I tend to state the obvious nobody wants to see ... only, I don't have to run away ... more, tend to drive people away ... and that works if you do well with isolation and dynamics of abandonment (not the same as solitude/individuation) ... I have suffered the illusion that I have something to share ... that I want people to hear ... to embrace with their own awareness ... but, I cannot make that my first concern, as I do not govern their choices ... first focus then, is to keep working, and trust that others will find meaning and relevance if it is there to be found.

    Here we are, detouring from the main subject of inter-species communication ... yet, all related, I would guess ... it is interesting (odd, if you will - or synchronistic) that just after writing the last post referencing a deep ground of resonance generating fields of harmonics manifest as the body of life (and related dynamics) ... I opened a book about energy referring to "the Aether Physics Model which believes that all particles and fields have their basis in a dynamic quantum scale called the Aether."

    Oh boy, more research to do ... here are some links to start with ... if I can catch up with this one, I'll start a thread to focus on it ... like everything else, it will take time ...:

    http://www.quantumaetherdynamics.org

    http://www.esotericscience.com/Physics.aspx

    http://aetherpages.com/index.htm

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_theories

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminiferous_aether

    I need to crank up the desktop so I can read this tiny print on a larger screen where I can zoom in without having to scroll back and forth on each line ... is there any way to set the fonts on the page so text wraps to the size of the screen viewing (or something like that?)

    Also, can you please tell us how to put an image in the profile?

    ... way off topic, I know ... so, are you familiar with the works of Monty Roberts, re communicating with horses?

    OK for now,

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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by Ren's View on Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:30 am

    I only have a few moments, I'll get back to this later today (or at least I hope to).

    To change your "avatar" go to the top of (I believe) any page towards the right side where it should read "Welcome k allen" (in your case, in my case it's "Ren's view") when you are logged in.  If you click on that, a drop down menu will appear.  The second option should be: "Edit profile"

    Click on "Edit profile"

    The page that comes up will have a list of tabs across the top; in my case "preferences" is the default, so I'm looking at my preferences below the tabs when "Edit profile" opens up. This is probably where someone will run into problems.  It's easy to focus on the preferences on the page and overlook the tabs. Move across to "Avatar" which should be the fourth tab over.

    Click on "Avatar"

    You should open a new page with a number of options, including uploading one from your computer if that's what you prefer.

    There may be a way to change the margins.  But, I'd prefer not to design this site for hand held devices and their minuscule screens.  I think Thom tried to compromise his message board for that technical change, and I found that writing what for me is a normal a paragraph, something longer than a sentence or two, looked like a page without paragraphs instead of a paragraph.  I think that puts people off when they see that.  It's kind of a personal battle between me and the IT technology design guys who I feel are dominating the way we communicate by forcing us into sound bite mode.  I thus don't do "tweets" and I don't do much with "Facebook," though I found myself forced there recently because that's where everyone I know is posting right now, including douglaslee (dleet on this site).

    Communicating at and about every point where communication becomes compromised by the technology is "on topic" as far as I'm concerned within any other topic we are discussing.  If I find that it's a general issue that needs its own thread I can always duplicate what ever might come up -- like in this case, finding where to change avatars on this board -- in a set of technical topics somewhere... if that seems like something I need to do.  It's difficult to anticipate everyone's needs and to design the site so it accommodates all.  So why not bring something up when and where the idea comes to you?

    More on Monty Roberts later, but I can't think of any example more on topic than what he tries to share about communicating with horses. 


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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by ogun on Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:09 pm

    Uh huh and I can train pigeons to play ping pong or big cats to jump through flaming hoops or seals to balance balls on their noses it only comes down to methodology rather than the actual fact that in the end it's a breaking down of an essential spirit of the animal that makes that animal what it is. One can call the training humane if that helps you sleep at night, but in the end it amounts to the same thing. You've made the animal into just another tool like a 1/2 wrench just laying about to be used as the case suits.
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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by Ren's View on Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:43 am

    You've raised a moral issue that troubles me as well.  I think it began to trouble me at a conscious level shortly after we moved to live on and work a farm when I was in the sixth grade.  I began to see many things people take for granted from a different perspective.  Especially grocery stores, farmers' markets, things involving exchange of items for actual survival.  On the farm, actions like watching my father chop the heads off the chickens that were too old to lay eggs so we could process them and put them in the freezer for chicken soup and the like, put me in a deep funk.  You would never eat those old hens as tender, finger lickin' good Colonel Sander's Kentucky fried chicken, but they didn't have a retirement home on our farm or elsewhere, and they could be used for food of some kind, like chicken noodle soup.   These were the same chickens from whom I'd been gathering eggs and processing those eggs in a cool, dark, windowless room off the basement of the old farmhouse we'd moved into by "candling" them for bloodspots and yolk quality, then sending them rolling down a scaling device where their weight would sort them into extra large, large, medium and small.  The experience of such processes brought out the beginnings of my turmoil with these questions about how we humans use animals. The fact that I discovered in the process that I didn't like doing it might have helped me along.

    The question of mutual respect, which was the basis of child rearing that my father did a fine job of practicing with me, never once using an authoritarian hand or voice to force me into helping, and how far it should go, not just with other humans but all species, is an underlying puzzle of that notion of mutuality and respectfulness.  I think those who are reared in an authoritarian home environment have a larger hurdle to clear to begin asking those mutuality and respectfulness questions. The documentary about the horse whisperer alludes to some of that. It's like the conditioning that takes place that brings out that Stockholm syndrome mentioned earlier.

    The entire human species is facing this moral issue now that it has overshot the carrying capacity of this planet and has "successfully" encroached upon habitats of so many other species, becoming homo colossus in the process as it puts on the prosthetic devices of its technological inventions, which include is institutions as a kind of technology, displacing the other living species, driving them into extinction.  But it looks to me like most humans within these civilized systems are simply ignoring it.  In the long run this moral dilemma will, with very little doubt left in my mind, become a practical dilemma if the whole of this species continues on without recognizing the human species' role in the planet's sixth mass extinction.  The hubris of most is such they tend to believe, through some set of abstract mythologies, that humans will not be among those species that go extinct.  The mythological rationales go from some sort of belief in a Divine Being that watches out for humans as the chosen species to an unverifiable belief in the capacity to fix the mess with more of the very same technology that created it.

    My ethical answer is simple enough, but hardly one that I can force on the consciousness of others.  I don't own any animals.  I don't eat meat.  But I do want to live so I need to eat something.  I've decided to eat plants.  But that doesn't go without some sense of anguish.

    I don't suppose any of that inner turmoil about what to eat is a problem if one doesn't ask any questions about respecting other living beings.  And opening up the idea of possibilities of communicating with other species is going to take at least a few humans down that intellectual road of questioning.  These are probably humans who are not well adapted to the world as it is. There can be a kind of perpetual suffering in asking questions.  I don't blame anyone for not wanting to suffer.  I just don't see any way to avoid it.
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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by k. allen on Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:40 am

    Thank you for the technical perspective, ren's view ... I hear what you are saying - will work it out. Interesting you mention the phenomenon of light in response to Aether dynamics ... I think I read somewhere that light is the bridge between energy and matter, as wave and particle combined ... another view to ponder ... body of light ...?

    I think life feeds life ... seasonal plants renew themselves, if we don't use them for nutrition and textiles, they simply go to compost, and there is plenty of that, especially if we eat/excrete them (composting toilet systems, please) ... it probably makes a difference to harvest with a spirit of appreciation, love and gratitude ... also true for those who take animals for food (not to be found in the factory farm dimension (we are what we eat!!)) ... besides, if energy comes from the sun, and loses some potency with every transmission from raw energy to elemental substance to plant energy through consumption to animal energy, again, through slaughter and consumption to nutrition for the dinner table ... it seems more simple and clear to get complex proteins from seeds/nuts, grains/legumes and eat fruits, vegetables, roots ... herbs ... from what I can see, it yields a healthier, happier humanity.

    ... cleaner waters and fresher air, too ... not to mention, less cruelty, and the stress/karma of killing .....

    Also, I would rather harvest renewable vegetable fibers like bamboo and hemp for textiles than cut down trees ... all that junk mail ... all that wasted paper ... for what?

    ... another barren hillside - and really good toilet paper, too ... you _know_ we have that.

    ...so, anyway, inter/intra-species communication ...?

    I watched that video to hear what Monty Roberts had to say. Beyond that, I have no stomach for such cruelty ... a clear reflection of the myth of freedom in this land.


    Last edited by k. allen on Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:27 am; edited 2 times in total
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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by k. allen on Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:43 am


    (ogun)
    "... it only comes down to methodology rather than the actual fact that in the end it's a breaking down of an essential spirit of the animal that makes that animal what it is. One can call the training humane if that helps you sleep at night, but in the end it amounts to the same thing. You've made the animal into just another tool like a 1/2 wrench just laying about to be used as the case suits."

    Hi ogun,

    I appreciate you pointing that out - except, with a wrench you don't have to clean the stall every day ... only, if that horse was in the wild, you wouldn't have to clean the stall either ... and, nature would compost the widely spread manure to fertilize the fields.

    That would be the permaculture approach, I think ... how to convince other humans this is _very_ much worth doing (and _so_ not worth not doing) ... or that federally protected lands _are_ worth protecting so, at least some surviving critters can run free ... what will humanity choose ...maybe, a ferris wheel at the Grand Canyon?!

    I cannot stand the way people treat horses, and other animals - and, other humans, for that matter. How many people are comfortable with species they can subdue and control, yet cannot connect with other humans?

    The recognition that living beings have feelings and intelligence - the capacity to communicate gently, to invite willing cooperation rather than impose your will through pain and torture ... that is worthy of note.

    Even so, with all due respect, it is an imposition of dominant will and "a breaking down of an essential spirit of the animal that makes that animal what it is."

    I agree.

    No way is any one man going to take the place of the lead mare and the herd.

    Worse than that, for those wild mustangs, survival options are narrowing from the wide open prairie to the domestic corral (pen, if you will) with the only other path leading to the glue factory.

    This would seem to be true for other _surviving_ species, including humans ... one way or another ... so, I would guess, with changing circumstances, flexibility, sensitivity, and the ability to learn to communicate effectively are and will be essential survival skills.
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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by k. allen on Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:02 am

    ..., I still can't get my profile to open for edIting ... ((story of my life ....))

    ... ok, got into the profile ... still don't see a way to change the avatar ... can you install this image for me? drunken



    ... I just got an email from serving.com saying my account has just been created - for uploading images ... do you happen to know if that is part of uploading an image to this forum?

    ..., also, not sure how I logged out last time ... not happening this time ... will erase all cookies from my machine and see if that works ...


    Last edited by k. allen on Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:35 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : ... self explanatory)
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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by Ren's View on Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:32 am

    k. allen wrote:..., I still can't get my profile to open for edIting ... ((story of my life ....))

    ... ok, got into the profile ... still don't see a way to change the avatar ... can you install this image for me? drunken



    ... I just got an email from serving.com saying my account has just been created - for uploading images ... do you happen to know if that is part of uploading an image to this forum?

    ..., also, not sure how I logged out last time ... not happening this time ... will erase all cookies from my machine and see if that works ...
    As you can see, I managed to upload your avatar for you.

    Since I only can see what this site shows for me, being the administrator with probably a few more options available, I can't be sure that what I see is what you see. 

    For me, at the top of the screen of my browser is a bar.  It's a black bar, while the rest of the margins on this site are blue with some green and yellow. 

    In the black bar, which is always present no matter what page I'm on, is where I see "Welcome Ren's View" on the right side, just to the left of "Notifications".  If I hover my mouse icon over "Welcome Ren's View" an underline appears indicating it's a link, and I can click on it. 

    When I do a menu opens up. The first thing on that list is "View Profile". You don't want that .  The second thing on that list is "Edit Profile".  That's where you need to go.

    If I click on "Edit Profile" I open up another page.  You have to do those steps to get to the options to select your avatar.  I don't know for sure what page of options you will see when you click on your "Edit Profile". 

    My default page in "Edit Profile" that I go to is "Preferences".  There is a bar above my "Preferences" with what I call tabs.  The far left option is "Information".  Next is "Preferences". For me, "Preferences" is highlighted because that's the page I'm on to start with.  Next is "Signature" and then comes "Avatar".  If I click on "Avatar" a new page opens with the options for changing my Avatar.

    If that's not what you see happening for you, I'm at a loss for how to explain how it should work for you.  Obviously it's possible for you to change your image, douglaslee managed to do it.  You just may have to find how for your view of this site.  I'll have to ask him what it looks like for him.

    I seem to recall getting that same message from serving.com way back when I started this site.  But it's in the fog of my memory.  I suspect it's due to your loading that avatar image to your post. It would be too hard to find the email they sent me at this point.  I get hundreds of emails for that address. Let's assume that it is for this site for now.  No harm has come to my computer since then.  So I'm assuming it's benign.  They are just letting you know that you have a link though their server to this site.

    "Logout" is the last option on my list when I click on "Welcome Ren's View" and the list (with "Edit Profile") opens up.

    Hope that helps.
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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by Ren's View on Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:25 am

    k. allen wrote:Thank you for the technical perspective, ren's view ... I hear what you are saying - will work it out.  Interesting you mention the phenomenon of light in response to Aether dynamics ... I think I read somewhere that light is the bridge between energy and matter, as wave and particle combined ... another view to ponder ... body of light ...?

    I'm pretty sure you responded to my ponderings about the quantum physics quandry with those links to the re-emergence of aether.  I just double checked, and, yes! your post follows mine!  I was not aware of the aether dynamics  you linked -- per ce, anyway -- so I wasn't responding to it, at least not knowingly.  My quandry and my imagery was just something that I got into my mind as a way of seeing things when I looked into the quantum physicists and their thinking about the universe years ago.  OK, I think I'm not confused anymore.

    k. allen wrote:



    I think life feeds life ... seasonal plants renew themselves, if we don't use them for nutrition and textiles, they simply go to compost, and there is plenty of that, especially if we eat/excrete them (composting toilet systems, please) ... it probably makes a difference to harvest with a spirit of appreciation, love and gratitude ... also true for those who take animals for food (not to be found in the factory farm dimension (we are what we eat!!)) ... besides, if energy comes from the sun, and loses some potency with every transmission from raw energy to elemental substance to plant energy through consumption to animal energy, again, through slaughter and consumption to nutrition for the dinner table ... it seems more simple and clear to get complex proteins from seeds/nuts, grains/legumes and eat fruits, vegetables, roots ... herbs ... from what I can see, it yields a healthier, happier humanity.

    ... cleaner waters and fresher air, too ... not to mention, less cruelty, and the stress/karma of killing .....

    Also, I would rather harvest renewable vegetable fibers like bamboo and hemp for textiles than cut down trees ... all that junk mail ... all that wasted paper ... for what?

    ... another barren hillside - and really good toilet paper, too ... you _know_ we have that.

    ...so, anyway, inter/intra-species communication ...?

    I watched that video to hear what Monty Roberts had to say.  Beyond that, I have no stomach for such cruelty ... a clear reflection of the myth of freedom in this land.


    Well, I guess you already know I'm a proponent of permaculture as a kind of sane option to industrial agriculture.  Or even much of the last ten thousand or so years' experiments in agriculture and animal appropriation for human use and consumption.  I've also discovered I am not much of an influence on the rest of the human species way of thinking about it.  I'm doing my best to live with that.

    What I saw in that Monty video was something like this:

    A human who had been brought to adulthood under the guise of an authoritarian outlook on the world made a discovery about how horses actually communicate with each other, and he borrowed from that discovery to create his method of training that makes other people start to think about such things.

    How far they will go in their thinking, what they will discover, is unknown to me.  I can't see how it can be known to me.  I can only speculate.  So here goes:  For the most part, I think people are so easily distracted by the next idea that comes up in this overly saturated environment of chaotic ideas that they won't stay with a moment of learning long enough to see any connections, nor, therefore, be in a position to make any changes in their acceptance of the authoritarian viewpoint they've adopted and live acceptingly within every single day of their lives.  I say that because it helps me to explain how someone like Donald Trump can be elected to the presidency by so many people (I don't care if it wasn't a majority, it was a lot of people) without being concerned about what he represents regarding that authoritarian way of being and thinking in the world.  His long television presence on a reality show was based on that authoritarian principle, and it was quite obviously popular to watch.  Was any of the watchers critical of it and what it means to their very lives?  How the hell should I know?
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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by k. allen on Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:24 am

    Thank you for setting my avatar image ... access to 'my profile' opens when I click on my name  (in some places, but not all) which opens the profile to edit, but not the avatar ... if I click on the avatar, I get three buttons:

    1) view the profile

    2) send private message

    3) link to my website

    The 'welcome k. allen ' by 'notifications' on right side of top bar does not give me a drop-down menu at all - just highlights to copy - maybe this machine is messed up ... also, I ought to be able to log out where I logged in, or at least, where it says I'm logged in ... only, no such luck.  At this point, I just log out by closing and deleting the page, then erasing all cookies and website info ... that seems to do it on this end ... not to worry, at least I got the avatar set - thanks for helping with that.

    Monty Roberts has come to some vitally important realizations about inter-species relations and communications.  From what I can tell, his work is well received by people who love horses, and animals in general.

    I see Trump already becoming drunk with power ... I have to trust that he does not represent the highest powers in this equation - that powers exist in this world - or somewhere in the universe - to balance and temper, or even prevent the era of tyranny he is likely to hatch ....
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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by Ren's View on Fri Dec 23, 2016 8:16 am

    That drop down menu from the Welcome at the top right is how you get to all the ways of setting your preferences, and it's also where you log out.  It should be working for you.

    It may be any combination of operating system, browser, and computer system features that prevent a drop down menu from working in your case.  I don't know off the top of my head what features in any of those environments would cause a drop down menu not to work.  According to this web site: How to fix dropdown menus not working on website, it might be you don't have java installed.

    You could try switching to another computer (that desktop perhaps?) and see what happens. 

    It doesn't seem to cause any harm if you leave yourself logged in and come back to the site with it set to remember you and log in automatically.  Removing the cookies is a sure fire way to make sure that doesn't happen.  I have one browser set so that it automatically removes all history when I close it.  Which is good for some surfing I do, a pain in the ass for others.  That's why I use more than one browser.

    I have no idea what the highest power in this equation actually is, or even if there is such a thing.  I like Guy McPherson's take on it though.  He describes it as Nature Bats Last.
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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by k. allen on Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:49 pm

    Well, I'm not going to worry about it - thank you for taking the time, ren - much appreciated.
    I like the avatar - and figured out how to log out, so that's all I need for now. I need to step away again, for a while, will follow when able, and check in from time to time.
    I have a lot of other work to do, and need to spend less time at the computer - so, will keep in touch, and thanks again for putting this forum together. I hope people pick up on it.
    And ogun, I welcome any perspectives you might want to share about the question of resonance, etc ... if you look at the 'Design Exploration' on my website, you can see what I've been working on, related to that idea:
    http://tahomahome.weebly.com/design-exploration.html
    ... not educated, or knowledgeable, here ... just curious ... and driven ... out of time, out of mind ... best wishes to all, ka

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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by ogun on Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:05 am

    Monty Roberts has only shown the same thing that trainers have been showing for generations, that we (the human species) are quite good at teaching others in the animal kingdom our language not visa versa. The only difference is in technique. Let's consider what had obviously happened previous to the footage shot in the video even if (and I think it a big if) it was filmed in real time. The animal was inured to humans or at least to him personally and the horse had a bridle on. Well, how did that all come about? I submit Roberts did it in the same way it has been done for centuries, you limit freedom and you control the food schedule until the point of where the animal is reasonably happy to see you and will accept your close presence. Now think about the space the horse was let loose in, note the high stolid walls, note also how the animal shy's and looks for a way out, if that horse had seen any daylight beyond it would have been gone in a flash..... or died trying. Even though I have little knowledge of the language of horses I'll opine that Roberts chooses very carefully what horses he turns his back on as I believe just like the canines the dominant members of the social group (in this case the herd) do not turn away because to do so is to invite nothing but trouble. 
    But of course that particular horse was already broken in spirit when it walked into that ring. Fight was not in the question as Monty was the source of food, and flight was impossible..... what is an animal to do other than learn our heartless language of being a tool? 
    It's just a matter of technique. The end result is the same, it's only how one feels about the way it was accomplished is all it is.

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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by ogun on Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:18 am

    Kay, I'll decline the invite to the spiritual, thank you. The last time I ventured to share I was eviscerated, so I'm a little gun shy. 
    What I will say though is, when I speak of hearing it's not necessarily the same thing as hearing. If you catch my drift.


    Ren., as an anthropologist you must find todays political/social environment extremely interesting. And where is Doug?
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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by Ren's View on Sat Dec 24, 2016 7:16 am

    ogun wrote:Kay, I'll decline the invite to the spiritual, thank you. The last time I ventured to share I was eviscerated, so I'm a little gun shy. 
    What I will say though is, when I speak of hearing it's not necessarily the same thing as hearing. If you catch my drift.


    Ren., as an anthropologist you must find todays political/social environment extremely interesting. And where is Doug?

    Oh yeah.  I think "interesting" more as an artist seeing this than an anthropologist, but anthropology offers a few doorways into the variations in the human capacity to invent a social adaptation to the world, most adaptations of which are considered abnormal by one or another group that's used to their own way, their own look within the whole human species spectrum.  I know a bunch of people who walked away from anthropology because they didn't want to open those doors.  Some went into business professions, which apparently suited their sense of comfort and style. Which I think is more the norm than not, and why anthropology departments aren't at the top of the funding feeding troughs in most universities, let alone invited to present their ideas as subject matter to children in primary and secondary public schools.

    What's normal is more likely this anti otherness we see all over these days, now exacerbated by one of the greatest waves of human migration that we know of. Which makes sense to me thinking ecologically about habitat overshoot and all and the last century's human population growth curve. And of course there is always a small percentage of sociopaths who find a way to profit from human misery:

                The Twenty First Century Gold Rush

    (Note of caution: the above link goes to a site that's not all that easy to navigate if you've never encountered the techniques used to mix visual media with written journalism.  You may have to play around with your mouse, like using the scroll thingie, for instance, to get it to work.  I did anyway.  Maybe it's designed for these touch screens.  I don't have one so can't say.)

    Doug is dleet here.  He just posted something yesterday as a new version of dleet -- dleet86. He recently discovered Facebook, so he's been spreading his cheer around in that environment.  He likes an audience, I suspect, and so far I haven't been able to get him one.

    I couldn't agree with you more about what we see in those youtubes about Monty and his methods.  Anybody who thinks anyone is thinking outside the box on these issues of communication with animals presented so far on this thread is living in a mythic reality of their own creation.

    I would really like to go beyond that, but generally first we have to thoroughly debunk the material presented, I suppose.  Any actual change of perspective, or paradigm shift as some like to call it, involves a breaking down of the known (to me, more accurately, a breaking through). An opening up to the vast unknown.  Through the liminality into the... well, who knows what.  As an artist I spend much time lettimg myself fall through the limen that encases me, often into the subliminal, the subconscious.  I try to structure what I find into some communicable form, but I don't kid myself into believing I've represented it.  And that's what keeps it always on edge for me.  I always feel I am failing to communicate.

    Chris DeGetmon is trying to get registered on this site.  We're trying to find out what's not working for him at this point.  If you recall, Chris (I can't remember what name he was using then) was the one who brought up that thread on spirituality in which you ran into those very nasty creatures at Thom's who were determined to kill off any discussion on the topic, even though it was taking place under the heading of Thom's book, The Prophet's Way. Should have been a safe forum for the topic. It's all just too weird to contemplate that people like Chris and I get shut down on that site, while those who killed the discussion are patted on the back.  I can only guess that perhaps Thom's The Prophet's Way was a phase in his life and he's left it behind now that he's found success in the big leagues of DC.  I'm hoping to engender an environment that will allow openness on all matters, including what we call spiritual.  I know. Silly to even try.  But I'm persistent if nothing else.
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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by Ren's View on Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:12 am

    k. allen wrote:Well, I'm not going to worry about it - thank you for taking the time, ren - much appreciated.
    I like the avatar - and figured out how to log out, so that's all I need for now.  I need to step away again, for a while, will follow when able, and check in from time to time.
    I have a lot of other work to do, and need to spend less time at the computer - so, will keep in touch, and thanks again for putting this forum together.  I hope people pick up on it.
    And ogun, I welcome any perspectives you might want to share about the question of resonance, etc ... if you look at the 'Design Exploration' on my website, you can see what I've been working on, related to that idea:
    http://tahomahome.weebly.com/design-exploration.html
    ... not educated, or knowledgeable, here ... just curious ... and driven ... out of time, out of mind ... best wishes to all, ka

    I wish you the best, Kathleen.  You are always welcome to drop in and say whatever.  Writing is just a map.  I don't know that it can ever be any more than that.  The territory we explore -- those of us who are exploring -- is what's more interesting to me.  Most 'knowledge' is a pretense of presenting the territory.  A map at best.  Map makers have been trying to map accurately for eons.  If I look at the history of maps, they are never alike.  And they may change drastically through time.
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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by Ren's View on Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:21 am

    So I open up one of my email sites after writing the above and find a link to another variation of The 21st Century Goldrush I linked above.  This one's from my Climate News Network site of daily news:

                                            Wealthy threaten China’s emissions cutbacks


    Kieren Cooke wrote:And new research shows that this mass movement of people – part of what is the largest internal migration in human history  – is not only leading to growing income inequality between the countryside and the cities, but is also threatening China’s goal of radically cutting back on its emissions of greenhouse gases.
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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by dleet86 on Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:29 am

    Musings of comparisons regarding thought. Or dont be too hard on your brain. If we understand why we choose the way we choose and we ought to make make better choices, unless the conclusion is "I knew I was an asshole, so what".
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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by Ren's View on Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:21 am



    And therein lies the paradox. Your predicament here is none other than your brain’s predicament! It is trapped in a windowless room – your skull – with millions of input lines positively humming with information about an external world it cannot see nor experience. It can only produce electrical impulses designed to stimulate muscles into contraction or relaxation. Yet you continue to survive.


    (Source)


     

    As if the brain is separate from the rest.  And then within the brain we have the capacity for language, and with language the capacity for conceptual self deception, with self deception, we get into imagining that the brain is locked in a room...

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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by ogun on Sat May 27, 2017 3:28 pm

    Boy! I came to this thread to relate something that I've never had happen before and read Dleet's last post. 
    Now I am confused to no end. Does that somehow have something to do with communicating with animals?!!!!!!
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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by Ren's View on Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:25 am

    I wish I could answer that, but you'll need access to doug's (dleet's) inner workings, which unfortunately he'll have to provide.  I'll just extend some empathy and say he's left me befuddled more than once.

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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by ogun on Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:10 am

    I realize I miss quite a lot in the deep thinking department so I was kinda wondering if Doug was taking some side long jab at my lack of comprehension of some nuance or another.
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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by Ren's View on Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:14 am

    Doug's moved on to facebook.  I don't want to make an issue of what I think of facebook.  I'll just comment that it's hardly a place for an in-depth conversation that can allow for comments on something posted several months ago. Everything is flowing from the moment into gradual oblivion on everybody's timeline.  There is no threaded conversation, it is not designed to allow for that. Same and even moreso with Twitter.

    Whatever Doug was trying to say in that post was said in January.  It looks like a link to something he may have stumbled upon, found interesting, and for whatever reason plunked down in this thread.  I can't get the link to open now so I don't even know what it was about at the time. 

    It appears to me, from years of doug watching, that he often does that sort of off the cuff associating without much concern for its implications to people who are trying to make sense of things as if each contribution is part of a thread of discussion, though I must also caution that it's only my guess, not a knowledgeable thought on my part, because I do not know what goes on in anyone's mind, I can only surmise through guessing. Nevertheless, such additions are much closer to what I observe on facebook-kinds of internet behavior rather than to a threaded message board discussion.  The reason being is because of the design of those sorts of social media. 

    On facebook you can just post something and forget about it.  It will move gradually off into a dark memory hole never to be seen again.  It's like a conveyor belt where thought droppings fall on the belt  in a spotlight surrounded by darkness. The belt is always in motion, so the thought droppings gradually but mercilessly move off into the darkness.  Somehow that appeals to people more than an intense, long term connection of ideas that are worked over like a real conversation.  People seem to get addicted to it.

    I don't know if doug will ever return to look at this thread to find your questions and offer you some satisfaction by clarifying what he posted.  I wouldn't count on it.

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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by ogun on Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:19 am

    So ya think we've lost the pleasure of Dleets' company around here for good? 
    Bummer, I rather enjoyed his free association type of thinking and communication. I guess I should've been a more attentive student when I had the chance.

    At any rate, I ran across this little related piece on animal communication this morning on the way to satiating my crossword puzzles vice:
    From the NYTs' 
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/04/well/family/the-empathetic-dog.html?_r=0

    I guess there's some kind of satisfaction that science is finally starting to take seriously what animal people has been saying since forever. But brings up in my mind just whom is more willing to communicate to whom?
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    Re: Learning to communicate with other species

    Post by Ren's View on Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:33 am

    It's possible.  It appears doug went off on the political disaster side of what's going on, may have got tangled in the weeds and drowned or something...  He would post to my facebook page regularly, instead of here, and I kept gently trying to tell him I am not focusing on Donald Trump and I do not want to host a page on facebook that helps make him America's big brother, always there, always to be seen.  I hope I didn't discourage him to the point he found somewhere else to share his offbeat way of seeing the world.  He and I have been sharing thoughts for at least twelve years.

    I enjoyed that article, kind of in a bemused amusement way.  As you aptly noticed about it, science is finally waking up to what many of us have been well aware of without bothering with the investigative tools of science.

    Science is just a way of trying to carefully think about something to discover the limits of one particular way of knowing.  What science comes to is not the absolute of what we know, but the limits of a way of knowing that I think has been given far too much prominence in this form of social organization called civilization, which I tend to think of as a way of thinking derived from developing institutions, where institutions themselves are designed entirely to work by rational means using "messy" human beings as part of the machinery.  Thus, because messy humans are not entirely rational as the machinery requires, we've had this movement towards a kind of computerized format for thinking.  I tried to imagine pairing a computer of some kind with that PTSD soldier who was seething with anger from what he'd experienced in Iraq, for instance, and I'm immediately back to why I even started this thread with the theme, learning to communicate with animals.

    As I mentioned in an earlier post, I grew up around all sorts of animals while living on a farm.  I also learned that I did not like what farms are with regards to animals and how humans in general regard them.  I had my animal friends.  Two dogs and a horse.  And we went off onto a nearby rich man's 2000 acre game preserve to explore and play together whenever we could.   We communicated in ways I've never been able to with humans.  I'm pretty sure the horse would have been much happier in a herd of horses, but he made do with me.  I had him from a colt and and he would follow me around like one of the dogs.  Even came up on the porch once to try to follow me into the house.  I would have brought him in, but others in the household were not of that mind.  I suppose that made sense, he could let loose with a fair amount of urine from time to time.

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