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    The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

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    The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by Ren's View on Sat Sep 17, 2016 6:02 am

    I get daily emails from a non corporate news service that publishes stories on climate and energy issues. It calls itself Climate News Network.  It's good if one has a broader, ecological-language based view, because stories can then be put in a perspective.  After all, the journalists report on a single issue, but making sense of the meaning of a single issue involves putting that issue into a larger context.  Some journalists will try to do that, some will not.  Renewable energy is one of those single issues that can be reported on with a certain tone of exuberance while ignoring the larger social context that gives it that categorical meaning.  Take today's email story:

    Fossil fuels investment takes a nosedive

    The story's author is Kieran Cooke, a founding editor of the news service, a former correspondent for the BBC and Financial Times who now focuses on environmental issues.  In my mind, a good resumé.  Cooke sounds to me like someone who's been there, and seen a lot, and probably has developed an ecological consciousness that's brought him to a point where he sees the predicament humans have created for themselves.  I look at these things when I read the news because I see the who of the writer as an important context of the what that's being said.  That's part of what I mean by developing an ecological language.  So I stress, ecology is not just about the understanding of biological systems of the environment, its about understanding human thinking and its relationship to what we think about.  This was expressed years ago by Gregory Bateson in his Steps to an Ecology of Mind.

    This, I discovered years ago, is also a raised consciousness issue in all of science that helps us to mentally remove it from the iconic pedestal upon which it was once mounted by proponents of the Age of Reason. These are the same proponents who invented the notion that humans are now successfully dominating nature with their science-based technology.  That illusion has become an archonic driver of institutions that allows the humans who are part of institutional machinery to ignore the effects of what their institutions are doing, since all that is done by science driven technology is by this definition good for Progress with a capital P.

    A familiar example may be found in the question quantum physics raised that first disturbed Einstein: is light a wave or a particle?  The answer depends on how it's looked at.  Which brings up the whole problem of subjectivity of perception.  How light is looked at is related to how it's measured.  This goes for just about everything we think about.  Take for example the seemingly science unrelated question of leadership in a society.  What should a leader be? What behaviors should a leader exhibit?  How do we know someone is, in fact, a leader?  Someone with a strict parent conditioning will answer that question one way, while another with a nurturant parent conditioning will have a different perspective on leaders.  The very issue of the legitimacy of the authority of any leader rides on those very different contexts.  The very nature of the institutions involved will be a result. And, subsequently, the nature of the institutions will effect the conditioning of those who are involved. So whether leadership is a wave, that is a continuum of relationships that's always connected with those involved, or a particle, something seen as a discrete, a definite something that exists as an object apart, thus something objectifiable, from the group, will depend on how it's looked at.

    The importance of becoming aware of this involves our consciousness.  If we are not aware of our conditioning, we may have difficulty realizing that we are creating a kind of predetermined answer by the way we think out our questions.  If we are unaware that the punishment our strict and authoritative parent gave us as a child when we exhibited creativity in our thoughts is now part of our ongoing self suppression of our imagination, we may miss the part where we are succumbing to institutional thought patterns without giving it proper doubt and questioning, and thus succumbing to the words of a leader who we fail to doubt and question.

    Now, back to the topic, the categorical.  In this case, fossil fuel investment takes a nosedive, while renewable investments are on the rise.  What does that mean in the big ecological systemic relationship picture?  

    In the big picture, not only do we have this problem of rising CO2 in the atmosphere, caused by human activity that is always directly related to employing energy for those activities (that's a simple law of physics that cannot be repealed nor avoided), we also have a range of ecological disasters related to a de-speciation of many regional and local ecologies that humans have invaded and transformed for specifics related to their species without consideration for their systemic ramifications.  The climate is not the driver of this rapidly accelerating process but merely one of the consequences.  This is being noted now as a mass extinction, which our science tells us from extensive investigation, is only the sixth one ever to occur since life emerged on this planet.  This may be the first one ever to be caused by a single species, rather than some catastrophic geological event.  

    The key factor in this mass extinction cause is a choice-driven way of life by one species, humans.  And that's, again, where our consciousness comes in.  If civilization is a human choice, not a DNA-driven way of organizing ourselves, as we see in, say, bee hives, then it follows that we may have some choice about whether we want to participate in causing a global mass extinction of species, with truly unknown -- in its full systemic detail, though clearly catastrophically probable -- consequences.

    So here's the thought.  In specifics it's held that replacing fossil fuels with renewables is a good thing for diminishing climate changes being caused by mounting levels of CO2 in the atmosphere.  But if there's so much more involved than climate change, is there not more that needs to change than just replacing fossil fuels with renewables? ...Provided that's even possible, which is another searing and daunting question.  Don't we need to be thinking about how we live as well?  Don't we need to be thinking about maybe how we look at our biosphere, our local environments, and how our way of living brings us into relationship with that?  That is what I mean by a revolution of thinking by changing our thought paradigm itself.  Changing from one that looks at specifics without much consideration for the whole and the consequences of those specifics. Changing to what? I'm calling that what revolution: 'ecological thinking.'  And if we need to be doing that, then we need to become conscious of it, and in being conscious we can begin to open our imaginative capacities and wonder how we go about transforming the way we think from this predetermining particulating, objectifying process that continues to produce the same conclusions, over and over, which include the same hubristic preconceptions that we are somehow advancing, progressing as a species, to a perspective that's entirely new.  

    I guess coming to that understanding would be the structure of a humanific revolution.  cheers
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by dleet on Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:05 am

    Revolutions are historically portrayed with a spark or shot heard round the world, or some other simplistic frame, but nothing is spontaneous and the sentiments expressed in a revolution have been growing within some communities all the time. These communities differ depending upon the blatant disenfranchising or civil rights abuses or corruption each community experiences up to overload or maximum tolerance. Civil rights, women's rights, LGBTQ rights, and more were not spontaneous. The warriors are learning the authors of their opposition, and they are always the same and hidden as co-authors or ghost writers, but always under the corporate interests umbrella. That is one beast worth starving since it feeds on money, it's weapon of choice, too. Disarming the beast or giving it only blanks, and thus a true expression of free speech and 2nd amendment rights (threats are reversible, killing is not). Defense does not require killing. Mike Brown's killer could've gotten back in his car like I did when a bear in the Smokies was too close to me and my camera, (film was my ammunition, a camera was all I shot and I used to shoot a lot).

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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by dleet on Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:38 am

    Another pov regarding systems and international order; Currently, most problems can be traced to the hierarchy present in the form of top-down authoritarianism, with the USA at the top and unilaterally dominant if it's the gop.  
    timesofisrael.com/ex-british-envoy-to-us-west-should-ally-with-iran/  challenges that. Obama is trying to escape that role of strict parent for the world but, with a back door safe re-entry option should survival require reinstalling it (you know marshal law and stuff).
    ren, We read an analyst a few years ago supporting Iran's elevation to ally status, and he had a Ted Talk (Dan...?). I thought he was right then, and Saudis have proven untrustworthy so often that the only reason to continue to alienate Iran is Bibi.
    I can't post links yet, 7-day trial embargo for new registries, but the stuff I posted is clear enough to get the point across.


    Last edited by dleet on Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:30 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : additional material)
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by Ren's View on Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:48 am

    I'm looking into this 7 day thing about not posting links. I think if I make you a moderator that might change it.  I'll check that out first thing in the morning.  I've been up since 4 AM, and it's now 12:45 AM so I think it's safe to say I'm about ready for some sleep.
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by dleet on Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:04 am

    Thanks, I found a new youtube channel NewCollegeoftheHumanities with Dennet, Pinker and others discussing evolution, of culture and mind. I haven't finished any lecture yet but am just browsing, and good night.
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by Ren's View on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:39 am

    You'll notice that you are now a moderator. See if that helps.
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by Ren's View on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:42 am

    dleet wrote:Thanks, I found a new youtube channel NewCollegeoftheHumanities with Dennet, Pinker and others discussing evolution, of culture and mind. I haven't finished any lecture yet but am just browsing, and good night.

    Looks like a rich vein.
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by Ren's View on Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:02 am

    Also found the offending button that disallowed you (and any other new poster) to post links for the first seven days and I turned that stupid default idea off.


    Last edited by Ren's View on Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by Ren's View on Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:23 am

    dleet wrote:Another pov regarding systems and international order; Currently, most problems can be traced to the hierarchy present in the form of top-down authoritarianism, with the USA at the top and unilaterally dominant if it's the gop.  
    timesofisrael.com/ex-british-envoy-to-us-west-should-ally-with-iran/  challenges that. Obama is trying to escape that role of strict parent for the world but, with a back door safe re-entry option should survival require reinstalling it (you know marshal law and stuff).

    ren, We read an analyst a few years ago supporting Iran's elevation to ally status, and he had a Ted Talk (Dan...?). I thought he was right then, and Saudis have proven untrustworthy so often that the only reason to continue to alienate Iran is Bibi.

    I can't post links yet, 7-day trial embargo for new registries, but the stuff I posted is clear enough to get the point across.

    I believe that analyst you refer to was strategic planning consultant Stephen Barnett. I'm pretty sure it was on his topic The Pentagon's New Map.

    TED talk: Thomas Barnett: The Pentagon's new map for war and peace

    Strategic planning is what I sort of fell into as a "temporary" consulting business back in the eighties, so that's why I remember him. Temporary because I didn't want to help corporations become better at what they did, so I took my talents elsewhere. It's still how I think. I don't know if I'm helping anyone though. I'm certainly not getting paid for it anymore.

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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by Ren's View on Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:52 am

    dleet wrote:Revolutions are historically portrayed with a spark or shot heard round the world, or some other simplistic frame, but nothing is spontaneous and the sentiments expressed in a revolution have been growing within some communities all the time. These communities differ depending upon the blatant disenfranchising or civil rights abuses or corruption each community experiences up to overload or maximum tolerance. Civil rights, women's rights, LGBTQ rights, and more were not spontaneous. The warriors are learning the authors of their opposition, and they are always the same and hidden as co-authors or ghost writers, but always under the corporate interests umbrella. That is one beast worth starving since it feeds on money, it's weapon of choice, too. Disarming the beast or giving it only blanks, and thus a true expression of free speech and 2nd amendment rights (threats are reversible, killing is not). Defense does not require killing. Mike Brown's killer could've gotten back in his car like I did when a bear in the Smokies was too close to me and my camera, (film was my ammunition,  a camera was all I shot and I used to shoot a lot).


    I think that's a generally true-ish observation.

    Many people took their disenfranchisement for granted as simply the way life is for generations before they began to act out. If someone is born into a repressed social environment and receives no information to tell them life can be otherwise, then it takes an act of rebellion within that mental paradigm of every day repression to even recognize there's a problem to address. Humans are very good at adapting to what is. Doubt and skepticism are natural mental processes that can contribute to that rebellious moment.

    There's sometimes a necessary educational process that awakens the first glimmerings of realization in the majority of people who are just trying to live and get along each day.  Educators who've had that glimmer of freedom appear in their minds are often put down like rabid animals before they can plant their seeds of awakening.  Freedom of speech formalities embedded in a given nation's legal coding (constitutions) are part of the long push back process that now allows people at least some freedom to educate each other about oppression.  Unfortunately institutions must also be formed to make those freedoms possible, or they are just words that can be twisted and tweaked to apply to an Orwellian opposite, and those very institutions can be corrupted, the way we have seen our Supreme Court packed with pro corporate elitists by the corporate arm of our political parties, the way we have watched legitimized corporate lobbying industry's paid agents invade our federal and state legislatures to "help" our elected representatives write laws that often contradict the very spirit of free speech and individual awakenings to repression.  Many of those paid lobbyists got their formal training as publicly tax-paid representatives, then went to the private sector to do the same job for better pay.

    I'm not quite sure how you go about disarming that beast in a common law legal system that's built so many precedents that lead to monumental legalities like Citizen's United.  It has become a complex system that takes a lot of specialists to maintain, even more to change with the same incremental procedures that built it.

    Sometimes all that's left to do is learn new survival skills while waiting for the expensive energy intensive complexity to run out of fuel.  And that can actually be very revolutionary to see and do that.  Not to mention a potential for non violence if someone can stay off the radar when the managers begin to panic and put control factors, like police suppression, public surveillance strategies, and more into a full throttle mode.
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by Ren's View on Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:32 am

    Amazingly, or is that serendipitously, I just got a link to today's article by Chris Hedges summing up all the features I was trying to jam into my above paragraphs.

    The Courtiers and the Tyrants

    The amazing part of his summary to me is I figured out the place of the Powell memo long separate from anything either he or Ralph Nader ever made in public of their thoughts.  So it's nice to know I'm not alone in how I'm seeing this go down.  And it's even nicer to know anyone can, and then when we get together, sometimes by accident, we find not just moral support but even greater and broader networks of thought that help to confirm the ethical foundation of our audacity to think these rebellious thoughts.



    Chris Hedges wrote:Lewis Powell, then the general counsel to the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, in August 1971 wrote a memo called “Attack on American Free Enterprise System.” It became the blueprint for the corporate coup. Powell would later be appointed to the Supreme Court. Corporations, as Powell urged, poured hundreds of millions of dollars into the assault, backing candidates, creating the Business Roundtable, funding The Heritage Foundation, the Manhattan Institute, the Cato Institute, Citizens for a Sound Economy, and Accuracy in Academia. The memo argued that corporations must marginalize or silence those who in “the college campus, the pulpit, the media, and the intellectual and literary journals” were hostile to corporate interests. Powell attacked Ralph Nader and called for a concerted campaign to discredit him. Lobbyists eager to dole out huge sums of cash flooded Washington and state capitals. It soon became difficult and often impossible, whether in the press, the political arena or academia, to challenge the dogma of neoliberalism.

    “It laid out a strategy to attack democracy in America,” Ralph Nader said of the Powell memo. “He basically said to the business community, you’ve got to hire a lot more lobbyists swarming over Congress, you’ve got to pour a lot more money into their campaigns, both parties’, Republican and Democrat. You’ve got to get out on the campuses and get right-wing speakers to combat progressive speakers.”

    The eight-page memo, Nader went on, said, “Look, galvanize, come into Washington like a swarm, media, lobbying, put your high executives into government offices, regulate offices, Department of Defense, and so on. But that wasn’t the most successful strategy, although it was successful. The most successful was that the Powell Memorandum led to the massive corruption of the Democratic Party. And that came at the same time that Tony Coelho, who was a congressman from California, took over the fundraising for the House of Representatives Democrats.”

    The infusion of corporate money into the Democratic Party left the liberals in the party with a stark choice—serve corporate power or get pushed out. Those, like the Clintons, who were willing to walk away from the core values of liberalism profited. At that point they became liberals only in name. They were assigned their part in the empty political exercise, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Nader calls these faux liberals “rhetorical snake charmers.”

    Once corporate money started to pour into the Democratic Party in the early 1970s, legislation that sought to check or regulate corporate power—the auto and highway safety laws, oil pipeline safety laws, product safety laws, the revised Clean Air Act, the Occupational Safety and Health Act and the measure that established the Environmental Protection Agency—was no longer possible. The Democrats began to compete with the Republicans to propose legislation that would provide tax loopholes for corporations. Such legislation now legally permits oligarchs such as Trump and corporations to engage in a de facto tax boycott. The system, designed to exclusively serve corporate power, fell into political paralysis. The consent of the governed became a joke.

    “There hasn’t been a single major piece of legislation advancing the health, safety and economic rights of the American people since 1974, arguably since 1976,” Nader told me. “That’s the effect of money in politics. That’s the effect of a totally subservient strategy by the liberals.”

    Labor, which once put about one in every four dollars into the Democratic Party, was sidelined as a political force. The corporate campaign of union busting, deregulation, automation and off-shoring of jobs accelerated. And the class of faux liberals, such as the Clintons, played its assigned role, speaking in the old language of liberal values while betraying working people.

    “[Bill] Clinton was an enemy of environmental, consumer, and worker issues,” Nader said. “He broke the modest welfare system for single moms. He sold out to the agribusiness companies. He allowed huge mergers in a bill he signed for the communications and the media giants, all in 1996, and this was quite apart from bombing Iraq illegally, killing civilians. He never opposed a swollen military budget that was unauditable.

    “If you can smile and have the right rhetoric—Reagan did that, too—you get away with it,” Nader said. “… All you’ve got to do in politics is say the right thing, even though your whole record is contrary, and you’re on your way.”

    Those agencies tasked with protecting the citizen from corporate abuse were consciously underfunded or turned over to corporate-approved staff members. Politics, like very other aspect of American life, was commercialized. Everything, from public lands to politicians, was now for sale.

    “There’s got to be sanctuaries in a democratic society where nothing is for sale,” Nader said. “Government shouldn’t be for sale. Childhood should not be commercialized and be for sale. The environment shouldn’t be for sale. Our genetic inheritance shouldn’t be for sale. Elections shouldn’t be for sale. They’re all for sale now.”


    Yeah, they're all for sale now, and its all legal.

    Edit:

    One thing I especially appreciate from Chris in that essay, and why he's always worth my bother. He rescued a tarnished memory of George McGovern that Thomas Frank had acidified with a historical remark about McGovern's campaign. With that remark, Frank cast McGovern into the basket of liberal elites he'd chosen as his naughty-naughty finger waving audience in Listen, Liberal: Or, What Ever Happened to the Party of the People?. Amongst everything in that troubled campaign, Frank pulled out an arti(ficial)fact. He claimed that McGovern had failed to invite the union to his platform and from there we had the decline of the Party of the people representing the working class. It wasn't how I remembered McGovern, who I supported as an undergraduate, post Vietnam Vet watching the corruption of the Republican Party at work on our political system, but when I read that, I was somewhat grateful to hear from a top notch intellectual and investigative journalist that McGovern had done so. Having turned his back on unions meant I would need to properly include McGovern in that liberal elite group. Chris rebalanced the memory I had. Thank you Chris. McGovern still has his dignity in my mind as a true member of those of us who find ourselves forever on the outside looking in. I still highly respect Frank, any of us can erroneously take a factoid and apply it out of context to create yet another even greater erroneous factoid.

    That's all. I just wanted to mention that, and to keep in mind that we all have our best and worst moments in creating our narrative.
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by dleet on Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:34 am

    Ken Burns Burns covers cultural revolutions,and VietNam was the second one, Trump is the third. Obama knows the risk of adopting the semantic absolutism of the label 'radical Islamic terrorism'. 1000s of blacks were lynched and not until '94 was an anti-lynching bill signed, though sneaked in with weasel words that are legal but not enough to say lynching was wrong. Blacks did not have access to AR-15s and internet instructions for bombs, but the next 'Others' targeted for lynching do have enormous resources for retaliation. Police states are born under such clouds and the militarization required for an efficient yet seemingly benign transition to a police state has already occurred. Tulsa has already launched a plan to besmirch the last victim "He was on PCP".

    btw, Don Jr's skittles note was plagiarized from Joe Walsh, the last blatant asshole turfed out of congress and now on radio. Like father like son, just annex or appropriate others' work and claim it as your own, I bet Trump was for freeing the slaves before Lincoln.
    Krugman was on Russert's MTP in 2002 making it clear that all the think tanks behind W were seeking to return to the '80s, the 1880s, pre-progressives, pre-antitrust, pro-monopoloy, pre-national parks*
    *A major target for corporations are the national forests, and parks for fracking, drilling, mountain top removal, and landfills for toxic waste.


    Last edited by dleet on Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:45 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : additional notes)
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by dleet on Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:59 am

    I said revolution was Burns' topic, but it was civil wars, Nam was the 2nd civil war, and we have a third festering. There is even a replay of the Know Nothings who preceded the GOP and coincided with the demise of the Whigs. Progressives are trying again, too. Twain's "History doesn't repeat, bit it rhymes" was one of Burns' appropriate interjections. He just made a new film and I didn't know he had done VietNam. WaPo's Cohen used the H word in a piece O'Donnell discussed yesterday.
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by dleet on Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:25 am

    Ignorance matured for improved bouquet turns into vinegar. And it always will, in spite of being stirred by hate radio and fox, ignorance always festers into an inedible or too offensive to keep at home poison, except in America and the GOP's home for misunderstood racists.
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by Ren's View on Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:57 am

    dleet wrote:Ignorance matured for improved bouquet turns into vinegar. And it always will, in spite of being stirred by hate radio and fox, ignorance always festers into an inedible or too offensive to keep at home poison, except in America and the GOP's home for misunderstood racists.

    I can see you are cultivating a disdain for your old home country, but I keep in mind there's a bigger picture than the one we are getting right now.  That's why I'm thinking of this as an apocalyptic era. 

    Apocalypse has a broad range of associations, not just the catastrophic one most associate with it.  One of those is like the phase in a rite of passage where the order of things has gone to shit and the passagee, in some cases known as the pilgrim, is experiencing extreme disorientation.  From that phase there is always a movement.  It may be towards death, or it can be towards the birth of a new order; or in the individual, the birth of a new order of personhood, who will take a new place in the existing order of things.  I think we are witnessing an apocalyptic moment with this phase of ignorance in the whole of American Society. 

    The GOP has not always been like this.  In fact, many in the GOP are not much like what we are seeing portrayed by the corporate media.  I have a hard time finding people like that and I live in what's considered a very redneck area of my very blue, as a whole, state.  The media itself is a quagmire that includes decent, idealistic people with liberal educations being forced, through the manipulation of corporate management, to find some way to present the world they see in a very edited, very censored environment.

    Unfortunately for all of us, the GOP did once employ some strategies to survive during a time the nation as a whole was rising out of the structure of oligarchic domination.  That strategy -- I believe they called it the Southern strategy -- led to coddling people with racist attitudes, and now the Party has to deal with that, or die as a party, as other parties have in the history of this nation.
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by dleet on Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:58 am

    Gerrymandering has so distorted representation of the people that it is not equal and a possible opening for a lawsuit for equal protection. The same specious reasoning Sandra Day said was behind Bush v. Gore. 46% of the vote got 5 of the 18 seats in PA, not equal and thus no need or desire to compromise. Political apartheid has now reduced the democrats to Bantu districts. The GOP still called Mandela a terrorist and Reagan kept him on the terror watch list while removing Pakistan, which then went nuclear.
    Remember the Birchers Koch's dad started and got kicked out of the GOP in the '50s? They are now allied with the Dixiecrats that the democrats kicked (effectively by adopting something they were allergic to) out after civil rights and voting rights were passed. Toss in the evangelicals, that bomb or kill ob-gyns and celebrated the Orlando shooting, for an even deadlier toxic mix. Burns likened this to the '60s. Kent State is now the last two guys killed. "They had it coming" was said after a)Kent State b) Orlando massacre c) Tulsa and NC  d) all of the above.  A:d

    We also have another period or periods to compare. Are we seeing the next beer hall putz or the Reichstag fires? Congress is looking more like McCarthy all the time and a 50s guy with a gangster fetish is almost too strange for fiction.-[another thread, fiction, we are not living a formulaic story,it's fascinating -(damn, channeling Spock?) and scary].
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by dleet86 on Sun Dec 25, 2016 6:34 pm

    http://www.salon.com/2016/12/25/no-middle-class-no-republic-gop-plans-to-destroy-americas-safety-net-will-also-kill-democracy_partner/   is what I've been saying for a couple decades. Democracy was infected with the Powell parasite after his memo. Powell and Pandora were cousins, but Powell's box has no straggler by the name of hope underneath the poisons he unleashed, and the parasitic DNA reproduces when it feeds. The folks feeding it are raiding their own cupboards denying their own kids to willingly befriend this paratrophic sponge thinking this colacobiosis is better than the democracy that offered a middle class and with it a say in their future.  Killing the voting rights and part of the 4th amendment was important too, thus exposing the old ruse of a balance of power that 3 coequal branches supposedly offer as long as the people vote the right way instead of like Chile, Iran, Guatemala, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Viet Nam. Reagan's foray into partnering with jihadists got the Soviets out, but that hand grenade cannot be disarmed once the pin is out. Sunni and Shia death matches are now 1400 years old and only by keeping their hands on the plunger can any associates avoid getting blown up. The 50 years before Reagan were a pretty good time to grow up for me. I have similar opportunities for my family over here.  http://londonbanker.blogspot.se/2011/09/testimony-of-marriner-eccles-to.html Explains how Scandinavians think, and how New Dealers thought before the think tank sewers backed up with Reagan in the lead, surfing the pipeline, and not even a shot of gammaglobulin.
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by Ren's View on Mon Dec 26, 2016 6:35 am

    I hear the pain.  Good analogy, both Powell and Pandora opening that "box" the metaphorical gods gave them.  Powell did not invent oligarchic capitalism, he merely awakened the forces that were lying there, contained in metaphorical boxes of democratic regulation and public attitudes towards sharing the wealth, put there when the Roosevelt Administration in desperation saved industrial capitalism from itself and set the stage for a more equitable distribution of the wealth that the system is designed to produce (never mind, for the sake of this moment of thought, whether or not that wealth production is a good idea for the planet as a whole). Reagan was one of the first things to come out of that box, along with all the political forces at work to put him in the White House, and then go on to change the nature of the powers of the Presidency, which GW finally was in the position to unleash.  So, in another metaphorical universe (in the mythological universe of Pandora, the box was more like a ceramic jar) this box is like one of those Russian doll containers, corporate ruling oligarchic dolls within dolls; that's what Powell opened.  Trump is another doll opened.  There could be more.

    First paragraph of this morning's Hedges essay at Truthdig echoes my own feelings this Winter Solstice-called-Christmas (in the Christian world).

    Chris Hedges wrote:
    This Christmas I mourn the long, slow death of our democracy that led to the political ascendancy of Donald Trump. I fear the euphoria of those who have embraced the atavistic lust for violence and bigotry stoked by him. These nativist forces, part of the continuum of white vigilante violence directed against people of color and radical dissidents throughout American history, are once again being groomed as instruments of mass intimidation and perhaps terror. I know that our civil and political institutions, poisoned by neoliberalism and captured by the corporate state, have neither the will nor the ability to protect us. We are on our own. It won’t be pleasant.

    What follows is a litany of the things to come out of the Trump doll. First he connects Trump to a fifties' figure with a genius for working the press, Joseph McCarthy, referencing the work of Ellen Schrecker, the country's foremost historian on McCarthyism.

    In paragraph nine he connects it to Lewis Powell:

    Chris Hedges wrote:
    Powell called for the establishment of lavishly funded think tanks and conservative institutes. He proposed that ideological assaults against government regulation and environmental protection be directed at a mass audience. He advocated placing corporate-friendly academics and neoliberal economists in universities and banishing from the public sphere those who challenged unfettered corporate power—especially Ralph Nader, whom Powell cited by name. Organizations were to be formed to monitor and pressure the media to report favorably on issues that furthered corporate interests. Pro-corporate judges were to be placed on the bench.


    Academics were to be controlled by pressure from right-wing watch lists, co-opted university administrators and wealthy donors. Under the prolonged assault the universities, like the press, eventually became compliant, banal and monochromatic.


    “He spelled out a need for an alternative to academic knowledge,” Schrecker said of Powell. “He felt the academy had been undermined by the left. He wanted to establish an alternative source of expertise. What you’re getting in the 1970s is the development of things like the American Enterprise Institute [in existence since 1938] , The Heritage Foundation, a whole bunch of think tanks on the right who people in the media can go to and get expertise. But it’s politically motivated.”


    “It was unbelievably successful,” she said of the campaign. “It’s pretty bad. What we’re seeing today is an assault on knowledge. What came out of this are the culture wars of the late 1980s and 1990s which created a set of stereotypes of professors as deconstructionist, raging feminists who hate men, cross-dressers, and, worse, who are out of touch with reality.”

    Constantly opening doll-like containers within dolls.


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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by ogun on Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:11 am

    I think it's a mistake to go wandering too far amongst the weeds when trying to deconstruct what is really a holistic problem. There is no just one single, two or three and even more uncounted issues to address. It is the body (in this case, humanity) as a whole that is the problem.
    Ren. hit upon the key very early on in his first post: IF civilization was a choice. Well, is it? Or is it actually part of our DNA? What if it is? Then our only real choice is what we do with our civilization (as we like to call it). As a social animal we have no choice, we are what we are. But as a body whole do we have enough of a collective memory and foresight to limit our outer growth and appetites? 
    Somehow I have always doubted it, and still do as the present condition amply illustrates.


    Yo Doug! How's trix's?
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by Ren's View on Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:28 am

    ogun wrote:I think it's a mistake to go wandering too far amongst the weeds when trying to deconstruct what is really a holistic problem. There is no just one single, two or three and even more uncounted issues to address. It is the body (in this case, humanity) as a whole that is the problem.
    Ren. hit upon the key very early on in his first post: IF civilization was a choice. Well, is it? Or is it actually part of our DNA? What if it is? Then our only real choice is what we do with our civilization (as we like to call it). As a social animal we have no choice, we are what we are. But as a body whole do we have enough of a collective memory and foresight to limit our outer growth and appetites? 
    Somehow I have always doubted it, and still do as the present condition amply illustrates.

    I think you've touched on what appeals to me when I think of what we are enmeshed in as being under the direction of institutions.  Institutions aren't human beings, but they are made up by them, kept in existence and in control by those who accept their existence and purpose.  In this way, the institutions come to rule us, as social beings -- and I agree that being social is a part of what we are, why we have come to be able to take over so many habitats as a kind of transformed humanity into a monster, homo colossus. 

    I am (and have been since I woke up to it on board that ship off the coast of Vietnam) trying to grapple with that within this false framework that makes out that I, as an individual, have anything whatsoever to say about it, and am, therefore, somehow responsible for these ruling institutions.


    I don't know, does that in any way amplify or relate to what you are trying to say when you write:

    ogun wrote:
    As a social animal we have no choice, we are what we are. But as a body whole do we have enough of a collective memory and foresight to limit our outer growth and appetites?
     
    Somehow I have always doubted it, and still do as the present condition amply illustrates.

    If that's the truth about our current condition, what options do we have, or, maybe more precise, do we have options?  Is this possibly our fate as a species and we might as well, or might as well not, depending on an individual's proclivities, live as well as we can individually while it takes its suicidal course?

    I have to admit that at my age, with what years I have left, if those years are even in the plural, I am not gnashing me teeth about all of this.  But I do feel a deep sadness for others, all living species, with regards to what I'm seeing.
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by dleet86 on Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:18 pm

    Accepting the state of things as they are is enabling a very sick patient. The body politic is infected but some think it needs leeches or the kind of bleeding that killed Washington. The body was just injected with some of the same infection it was elected to cure. Whereas many weakened versions of deadly toxins become vaccines this parasite might be rejected by its host since it may be species incompatible. Pig valves work, this guy is definitely a boar, so rejection must begin at grass roots levels. Home schooling and now a pyramid scheme proponent that hates public schools will mean the phenomenon will not be challenged soon. Millenials get it, though.


    References in periodicals archive?
    This is Wagner's great instantiation of Schopenhauer's world divided into noumenal reality (will) and phenomenal appearance (representation).
    [size]
    The ultimate stage of Hua-yen emphasizes harmonious coexistence of particularities without necessarily foregrounding their noumenal aspect.
    [/size][size]
    It is not directly about the human cognitive system, neither at the phenomenal nor the noumenal level, but about an abstract functional structure that Kant refers to as the transcendental subject.
    [/size][size]
    The image of Die Einsame's veil-like hair floating between the disjunct realms of the phenomenal and noumenal suggests that Mansfield's art is an illusory medium that allows her to solicit a higher Being but fails to anchor her.
    [/size][size]
    The term noumenal is preferred to the term numinous, since, as Lewis-Williams commented (personal communication), the
    San had no sense of the holy or the sacred.
    [/size][size]
    It is the view that a noumenal world--a world of hyperspace, of higher dimensions - awaits discovery by all the sciences, which it will unite and unify, awaits discovery under its first aspect of a realm Of PATTERNED RELATIONS, inconceivably manifold and yet bearing a recognizable affinity to the rich and systematic organization of LANGUAGE, including au fond mathematics and music, which are ultimately of the same kindred as language.
    [/size][size]
    The social constructivists face a real threat, however, if professors of literature, philosophy, or humanities challenge their pretensions by invoking noumenal or theological truths that transcend science and defy social constructivism.
    [/size][size]
    6) In the absence of God, the poet follows the opposite route, from the noumenal to matter, yet in both the means are identical.
    [/size][size][size]
    Assuming an unbridgeable Kantian bifurcation between the noumenal and phenomenal realms, and echoing Richard Dawkins, R.
    [/size][/size][size][size]
    No concept is adequate to the intuitions of the imagination so no language can express "it" (that is the noumenal vastness of God).
    [/size][/size][size][size]
    Also, in keeping with the monograph's interest in mapping parallel ideas between the Hamlet text and Kant's intellectual development, it is interesting to note that just as the Ghost remains a moral and ontological mystery, for Kant, notwithstanding the fact that our transcendental self makes sense of our sensory experiences, its categorical mindset can not be projected into the noumenal realm: we can not assert any definite propositions about how the ideas that correlate to our immediate experience might apply to that which transcends our known experiences.
    [/size][/size][size][size]
    26) But there are political implications to this reciprocity that we would do well not to miss, for, indeed, the relationship between the phenomenal world of "things" and the noumenal realm of the "human mind," or between language and its speaker, is the poem's enabling dialectic as well as the source of the violence it seeks to mitigate.
    [/size][/size]




    Hi ogun
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by dleet86 on Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:07 am

    From the Whorfian concept entry:For several decades, proponents of linguistic determinism and linguistic relativity have identified themselves with Edward Sapir and Benjamin Lee Whorf. The Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, as their separate relativity theses are called, has found many supporters from a variety of disciplines; in spite of the interest displayed in the hypothesis, however, it has remained a vague and ambiguously articulated collection of knowledge, and a "higher reality" reflected by language patterns. Both the verbal and experimental support of the hypothesis have shared in its general vagueness.

    It may well be the case that Sapir's inclusion in the "Whorfian" context is erroneous. It is not simply that Sapir was more cautious in his speculation than Whorf: Sapir was vigorously speculative but at the same time far more circumspect than Whorf in his estimate of the rule of language in the formation of ideas.

    For Sapir the relation between perception, thought, language, and speech appears to be as follows: upon reaching the mental level where the collation is possible, the data of sensation are classified into categories which are implicit in the language system. The process of classification is also the process of conceptualization; these conceptualizations are set into mutual relations at least in part by the structure of the language system. The single significant elements of speech are symbolic of the concepts; the flow of speech represents a record of the established mutual relations of the concepts. From this process, man moves to the formation of a worldview. (unquote) Somewhere else I posted about when sensations disappear in the people. 1) they are dead, the dead do not sense 2) they are crazy 3) they are inured to all the fracking abuse for the last 35 years, don't even know they are getting fracked, and are now participating in the clusterfrack now destroying others not yet inured.
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by Ren's View on Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:21 am

    dleet86 wrote:Accepting the state of things as they are is enabling a very sick patient.

    I'm having difficulty following how you see your argument that follows in your post,

    dleet86 wrote:
    The body politic is infected but some think it needs leeches or the kind of bleeding that killed Washington. The body was just injected with some of the same infection it was elected to cure. Whereas many weakened versions of deadly toxins become vaccines this parasite might be rejected by its host since it may be species incompatible. Pig valves work, this guy is definitely a boar, so rejection must begin at grass roots levels. Home schooling and now a pyramid scheme proponent that hates public schools will mean the phenomenon will not be challenged soon. Millenials get it, though.



    supporting that thesis... as a general thesis, that is.

    What is this infection you speak of?  A lack of humoric balance in the body politic, perhaps?
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by Ren's View on Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:04 pm

    dleet86 wrote:From the Whorfian concept entry:For several decades, proponents of linguistic determinism and linguistic relativity have identified themselves with Edward Sapir and Benjamin Lee Whorf.

    The Whorf-Sapir hypothesis was pretty well worked over before I got interested in linguistic theory back in the early seventies. The idea that thought is constrained by language is a back-assward way of seeing it.  It presumes that language is not a tool of mind, but rather mind is a conditioned response to language. This is positivistic rationalism in the extreme.  It's perhaps one of the most glaring examples John Ralston Saul's notion of the dictatorship of reason that resulted from the awakening of reason and the growth of the scientific revolution we call the Age of Enlightenment.  While reason itself is neither good nor bad, and merely a part of the human potential that must be understood for what it is, not given status as a kind of god of the human mind that many give it, often liberals, that faulty, linear, deterministic assumption, presuming the power and authority of logical positivism, has been debunked both scientifically and philosophically from just about any modern neurological point of view, thus it ceased to be an interesting theory long ago.  

    At the time (in the early seventies) we just looked at the W-S Hypothesis from a historical perspective so that we could come to understand that these kinds of flawed ideas are out there, like Skinnerian behaviorism continues to be "out there" as a supposed truth about human nature in the general thoughts of many people in society, especially institutionalists who manage their minions, and we would likely come across it in various enclaves, much like one might find in the thoughts of a cult, say a cargo cult, worshiping the wreckage of an airplane on an isolated island somewhere in the Pacific. Of course that doesn't stop anyone who gets it into their head that the W-S Hypothes means something useful from trying to work that uninteresting, tautological premise to yet another, ever erroneous conclusion.

    dleet86 wrote:The Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, as their separate relativity theses are called, has found many supporters from a variety of disciplines; in spite of the interest displayed in the hypothesis, however, it has remained a vague and ambiguously articulated collection of knowledge, and a "higher reality" reflected by language patterns. Both the verbal and experimental support of the hypothesis have shared in its general vagueness.

    More specifically, I'd say it's a linearly deterministic binarily rational hypothesis that language determines how people will think in a given language speaking group that has no supporting, scientific method-based grounding to support it.  Continuing to believe something without any support amounts to believing in a mythically created reality, rather than a phenomenon-created one.

    dleet86 wrote:It may well be the case that Sapir's inclusion in the "Whorfian" context is erroneous. It is not simply that Sapir was more cautious in his speculation than Whorf: Sapir was vigorously speculative but at the same time far more circumspect than Whorf in his estimate of the rule of language in the formation of ideas.

    For Sapir the relation between perception, thought, language, and speech appears to be as follows: upon reaching the mental level where the collation is possible, the data of sensation are classified into categories which are implicit in the language system. The process of classification is also the process of conceptualization; these conceptualizations are set into mutual relations at least in part by the structure of the language system. The single significant elements of speech are symbolic of the concepts; the flow of speech represents a record of the established mutual relations of the concepts. From this process, man moves to the formation of a worldview. (unquote) Somewhere else I posted about when sensations disappear in the people. 1) they are dead, the dead do not sense 2) they are crazy 3) they are inured to all the fracking abuse for the last 35 years, don't even know they are getting fracked, and are now participating in the clusterfrack now destroying others not yet inured.

    I think it's very possible that people are capable of creating mythical conceptions of the world they live in that have no relationship to the actual phenomenon they are embedded within and physically, sensorilly experiencing.  Exactly how they do that, I can only guess at.  I observed it in stark form when I was five years old when my mother had her first schizophrenic break, as they call it.

    Propagandists have long ago moved past language deterministic notions into the symbolic, metaphorical realm, in order to manage a population.  Eddie Bernays discovered, for instance, that women could be "inspired" to smoke cigarettes, thus expanding the consumer base for the tobacco industry -- potentially doubling it nearly over night -- by getting women to see that cigarettes are not simply tobacco wrapped in paper, burning, creating smoke to be inhaled, but symbols of freedom, which he simply renamed "torches of freedom."

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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by dleet86 on Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:31 pm

    Mythical conceptions include placebo and the more onerous, nocebo, where simple images in print or crossing the mind, can make the person sick (like tax increases for so-called conservatives). The Economist Magazine (no liberal rag) posted a survey showing 44% of Trump voters still think Hillary is running a sex ring.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzRL2tvhmqM  Vice newspaper/magazine is a Murdock property geared to millennials sought to get this professor, Mark Crispin Miller, fired.
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by Ren's View on Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:10 am

    dleet86 wrote:Mythical conceptions include placebo and the more onerous, nocebo, where simple images in print or crossing the mind, can make the person sick (like tax increases for so-called conservatives). The Economist Magazine (no liberal rag) posted a survey showing 44% of Trump voters still think Hillary is running a sex ring.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzRL2tvhmqM  Vice newspaper/magazine is a Murdock property geared to millennials sought to get this professor, Mark Crispin Miller, fired.

    What I'm trying to say in my above posts is that I believe it is very difficult for people who have not been schooled -- as in nurtured, not programmed -- in the art of skeptical thinking to reason anything about the world in a way that does not include an experience-based foundation to go with their abstract ideas (you've introduced the terms noumenal and phenomenal realms to go with abstract and experience here, I'm sure you can figure out which is which.)

    What we call news... that is, what most people think about the world derived from people talking (generally with a sense of authority about some topic or another) on television or other media (like youtube), as well as written forms of so-called journalistic reporting about what's going on... all that is pretty much completely abstract to the vast majority of recipients. Only a few people appear to have developed any critical context in which to listen to these ideas.  And very few in the entire population have any kind of direct connection to any of these events. Thus there is very little phenomenal connection to the noumenal creations of the media in the human population of the world.

    Since this media-shared information is completely abstract for recipients, with no experience to give it any grounding in most people's minds, such a process of "informing" a population is wide open to interpretive spin.  Interpretive (i.e., opinionated) spin is, essentially, the basis of propaganda. Managed propaganda takes that to another level that involves intentional control, as evidenced by the above video of Eddie Bernays. If you get enough disconnected spin floating around, people will lose their sense of narrative.  When people lose their sense of narrative, and they don't know how to create a grounding narrative for themselves using the skills of skeptical thinking (that they could have learned in school), well... what does anyone imagine will be the result of that? A sense of general panic and even fear, for one, will likely result. People in this state tend to grab onto things that give them a sense of grounding.  There's always the preacher in church to help.  Binary things like hate and blame are especially attractive for their emotional grounding.

    So, for the most part, most of this national conversation about what's going on in the world is a matter of opinions being thrown about, often without the benefit of an applied individual skill in skepticism for the majority taking it in.  On a geometrically expanding scale from the individual through larger and larger groups, that process is unlikely to ever come to anything like a satisfying representation of some sort of actual reality.

    The examples of this are seemingly expansively endless, and very present at the moment.

    Again, in the language of an apocalyptic era, as described by Craig Chalquist here, Conscious Apocalypse: Outliving Our Ruling Institutions,  we are very likely witnessing a breaking down of the complexities of civilizations institutions.  We can try do do this with, as Craig invites, more consciousness. Or, as some may be choosing, less.  Less may take a number of forms, including sticking their heads in the proverbial sand. 

    Perhaps that's what those 44 percent have done by choosing to believe that a potential presidential candidate would bother to run a sex ring along with all all the other complicated political matters that go with manipulating others at the top of our political spectrum of institutions.  Political maneuverings are extremely abstract, require a great deal of sophistication in order to read between the lines of what people say, and far beyond the experience of the average person not involved, especially not involved through years of experience and insider training. 

    Hillary Clinton, by the way, has many years of that training. And that is now the complex basis of our political system. So Hillary was, indeed, well prepared for the job. It's not going to become simplified by ignoring it.  It's probably utterly naive to hope it will disappear. Trump does not have that training.  He has different training, training in the corporate world.  Also complex, but different. Thus he is subject to rely on the knowledge and experience of his cabinet advisers with pretty much no basis for understanding the subtle nuances of these complexities on his own. I think even GW had more experience, mediocre a mind though he seems to be. Perhaps that's why Trump seems so genuine when babbling his few strange ideas to those who are also not experienced in this way (those who supported and voted for him) and are prone to sticking their heads in the proverbial sand by believing any opinionated spin on the news that can satisfy their feelings, news that's otherwise utterly absurd to anyone who has developed some skeptical sense about all this abstraction spinning around.

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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by ogun on Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:02 am

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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by dleet86 on Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:53 am

    You summed it up perfectly Ren. btw, I'm trying to update my photo like my old one before I turned 86,    https://scontent-mia1-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14721758_10209042826800799_4842951696417994387_n.jpg?oh=7608e5b107fd41ef4ff5230da81df8b4&oe=58D8BDE7 this is in Escher's portfolio

    is Hell After Heironymous Bosch, or a trump cabinet meeting, this next one shows the puppets becoming part of the mosaic after they hit bottom, just like the GOP base.
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by Ren's View on Sun Jan 01, 2017 6:56 am


    Welcome to 2017.  Pogo's observation has been echoing in my mind ever since that Earth Day.  I was fresh back from Vietnam at the time.
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by Ren's View on Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:18 am

    dleet86 wrote:You summed it up perfectly Ren. btw, I'm trying to update my photo like my old one before I turned 86,    https://scontent-mia1-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14721758_10209042826800799_4842951696417994387_n.jpg?oh=7608e5b107fd41ef4ff5230da81df8b4&oe=58D8BDE7 this is in Escher's portfolio


    is Hell After Heironymous Bosch, or a trump cabinet meeting, this next one shows the puppets becoming part of the mosaic after they hit bottom, just like the GOP base.


    Are you able to access a drop down menu by clicking on "Welcome dleet86" at the top towards the right?  If you are, you can add and change your photo by clicking "Edit Profile" in the list, then choose the "Avatar" tab on the page that comes up.  Then a page comes up with a number of options.  One option is to link a photo like Eschers through its url.

    If not, I can do it for you.  Kathleen doesn't get a drop down menu when she clicks on her welcome, probably because she's working off a tablet or a tiny computer of some kind and doesn't have java script installed, or it could be the add-ons for whatever she's using for a browser. Hard to tell without more information.

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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by ogun on Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:25 am

    inre, post #21
    Stoicism isn't an enabling in any shape or form Dleet. It is however an acceptance of things that'll never change, indeed can not be changed beyond ones self and even then those choices become very limited. Because I'd argue the human condition is just that, a product of what the human animal is and there is no escape. We, as in the human animal, will always be what you so eloquently observe and write about be it starting with a small tribe in some remote location to the nightmare grown real before our eyes in our life time. That small remote tribe believes in it's own lies and acts with much of the same types of principles as we identify as happening around us every day, just on a much smaller scale and scope.
    The human animal organizes, that's what we do from the smallest number of us to the seven hundred and fifty billion of us, we organize. We like to say WE have reason, that We have reasoning power of self awareness while all others of the  animal kingdom does not. But do we really? I'd argue it ain't done much for us thus far even if perhaps true. The human has barely grown beyond learning how to light a fire. WE can light a fire but we're still dancing around the fire pit calling to the gods for deliverance. Why do WE do so? I don't know but WE always find a rational. WE always have.
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by dleet86 on Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:50 am

    I bookmarked a site showing 10 inventions* humans forgot about that could have saved lives. One was the sewer and water canals Romans built but Europeans forgot about during the dark ages and cholera epidemics. They found their old technology when the Crusades took them to the backward Muslim countries that were the most advanced in science in the 7th and 8th century before succumbing to their own dark ages ala Wahabi fundamentalism which is a militant Amish sect within another Abhramic religion. The Temperance were more militant in the 19th century and even got a police action with the 19th amendment or Christian Sharia. Religions love authoritarianism.

    It's not the one I saved but similar-
    *Libraries were meant to save successful accomplishments by mankind.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               A parallel blowback from similar embraces of religious fundamentalism is the fact that Temperance begat organized crime (probably just gave it steroids), and Reagan's embrace of jihadis as proxy warriors to defeat those dreaded Commies begat even worse violence ie Isil. The moral? Do not mix religion and politics, there will always be a religious side upset with any outcome.


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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by Ren's View on Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:57 am

    ogun wrote:inre, post #21
    Stoicism isn't an enabling in any shape or form Dleet. It is however an acceptance of things that'll never change, indeed can not be changed beyond ones self and even then those choices become very limited. Because I'd argue the human condition is just that, a product of what the human animal is and there is no escape. We, as in the human animal, will always be what you so eloquently observe and write about be it starting with a small tribe in some remote location to the nightmare grown real before our eyes in our life time. That small remote tribe believes in it's own lies and acts with much of the same types of principles as we identify as happening around us every day, just on a much smaller scale and scope.
    The human animal organizes, that's what we do from the smallest number of us to the seven hundred and fifty billion of us, we organize. We like to say WE have reason, that We have reasoning power of self awareness while all others of the  animal kingdom does not. But do we really? I'd argue it ain't done much for us thus far even if perhaps true. The human has barely grown beyond learning how to light a fire. WE can light a fire but we're still dancing around the fire pit calling to the gods for deliverance. Why do WE do so? I don't know but WE always find a rational. WE always have.

    I know you addressed this to Doug, but it touches on a matter that has been troubling me since I first tried to express my personal disagreement with the purposes of our civilized society when it was making war on the Vietnamese peasants back in the sixties.  My efforts landed me in a military brig, so I discovered first hand the limits of my own abilities to have any effect on the larger movements of our society and what it was doing in the world.

    What I've come to in the many years of personal struggle ever since is a kind of reconciliation to my own personal limits.  It may be a kind of stoicism to recognize and accept my limits, and to me it is also a kind of reckoning with reality.  What little I can do -- and it is very little -- can not be in any way enhanced by sitting in a jail cell.  That's one thing I've concluded.  And that's a very experientially-based conclusion. 

    Granted, I can't do much by talking to people, but I have been able to get some people to see the value of an ecological perspective, at least momentarily during a discussion about it and what we are doing to our world, which sometimes they will actually recognize.  I have no idea how long it lasts once they re-engage with their own small world of problems they solve by consuming what's available for them in this global economy.  That moment of connection, though, is a lot more than not having that conversation at all, which is what happens when I'm physically isolated by the policing forces of this system that want to inhibit our freedom of speech whenever it threatens peoples' ways of becoming wealthy, which I would say includes trying to stop the war machine and its role in all of this.  You can follow that logic all the way out to people living in suburbs and driving to work in cities that are ultimately unsustainable.

    Nevertheless, I got into an unintended position with a friend of mine a couple weeks ago by pointing out that all these efforts to support groups who are trying to slow down the wreckage on the environment caused by the now 7.4 billion of us is pretty much not doing much.  He got quite irate at what he saw as an implication on my part that he was wasting his time supporting a certain group that was doing good environmentally and therefore suggesting that we should just give up.  I've been working to patch that rift ever since.  He just didn't want to see it the way I do, is all.  I, personally, can continue to try to do things while at the same time recognize that WE, as a species, will probably fail.  I can't begin to explain to someone how I can do that.
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by Ren's View on Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:40 am

    dleet86 wrote:I bookmarked a site showing 10 inventions* humans forgot about that could have saved lives. One was the sewer and water canals Romans built but Europeans forgot about during the dark ages and cholera epidemics. They found their old technology when the Crusades took them to the backward Muslim countries that were the most advanced in science in the 7th and 8th century before succumbing to their own dark ages ala Wahabi fundamentalism which is a militant Amish sect within another Abhramic religion. The Temperance were more militant in the 19th century and even got a police action with the 19th amendment or Christian Sharia. Religions love authoritarianism.

    It's not the one I saved but similar-
    *Libraries were meant to save successful accomplishments by mankind.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               A parallel blowback from similar embraces of religious fundamentalism is the fact that Temperance begat organized crime (probably just gave it steroids), and Reagan's embrace of jihadis as proxy warriors to defeat those dreaded Commies begat even worse violence ie: Isil.. The moral? Do not mix religion and politics, there will always be a religious side upset with any outcome.


    Let me introduce the thing about technological extensions of our biological givens (i.e., "successful accomplishments)  -- which William R. Catton calls "prosthetics" because they are like adding otherwise evolutionarily evolved features to what we are born with, biologically, so that we can actually become a kind of different species with these technological aids (Catton introduces the term homo colossus to generally describe this new species;  there are undoubtedly many breeds, like different breeds of dogs, including mongrels).  The "thing" is, with these "successful" prosthetics, humans can expand their species' population numbers as well as ecological niche inhabitations (basically invasions of habitats), by invading ecological niches that we otherwise are not biologically adapted to live in.

    Once you've grasped that concept, focusing on the "human life" saving capacities of these prosthetics takes on another dimension...  a "language of ecology" dimension.

    In his book, Overshoot: The Ecological Basis of Revolutionary Change, William Catton discusses what we humans have been doing with these "successful" inventions over the history of our presence as a species on this planet.   This is all discussed in the language of ecology. On page 18, Catton provides a time table that illustrates how humans have risen to become the dominant invasive species in any eco system they decide to invade:

    Remember,  he was writing this in 1979-80, not today.

    Here's his introduction to the graph:

    William R. Catton wrote:
    Origins of Man's Future

    We are already living on an overloaded world.1 Our future will be a product of that fact; that fact is a product of our past. Our first order of business, then, is to make clear to ourselves how we got where we are and why our present situation entails a certain kind of future.

    To this purpose, consider the information about the human saga assembled in Table 1. Taken a row at a time, this table tells an enormous (and enormously revealing) story. It is the story of a world that has again and again approached the condition of being saturated with human inhabitants, only to have the limit raised by human ingenuity.

    The first several rounds of limit-raising were accomplished by a series of technological breakthroughs that took almost two million years. These breakthroughs enabled human populations repeatedly to take over for human use portions of the earth's total life-supporting capacity that had previously supported other species. The most recent episode of limit-raising has had much more spectacular results, although it enlarged human carrying capacity by a fundamentally different method: the drawing down of finite reservoirs of materials that do not replace themselves within any human time frame. Thus its results cannot be permanent. This fact puts mankind out on a limb which the activities of modern life are busily sawing off.

    Catton, William R. (2015-04-10). Overshoot: The Ecological Basis of Revolutionary Change (Kindle Locations 483-493). University of Illinois Press. Kindle Edition.

    Yes, the Romans had sewers and canals that helped deal with potential for disease in the crowded conditions of cities.  Whose bright idea was it to create the first city?

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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by ogun on Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:35 am

    Yep, every once in a while when I'm in the mood I too will try to reach a body on what is self evident with even the most casual of glances of the condition, the dead end the human has boxed themselves into. On the ways they've been lied to. On the ways they've been herded. On the needless mindless bullshit that consumes their every day lives.
    And almost every time it ends up the same. 
    It must be me.

    I don't know ren., maybe I'm not fit company right now as this last election seems to have put my mind into places I thought was left behind long ago.
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by Ren's View on Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:59 am

    ogun wrote:Yep, every once in a while when I'm in the mood I too will try to reach a body on what is self evident with even the most casual of glances of the condition, the dead end the human has boxed themselves into. On the ways they've been lied to. On the ways they've been herded. On the needless mindless bullshit that consumes their every day lives.
    And almost every time it ends up the same. 
    It must be me.

    I don't know ren., maybe I'm not fit company right now as this last election seems to have put my mind into places I thought was left behind long ago.

    I'm not fit company either.  Haven't been for many years now.  I've learned to enjoy my own company.  Maybe that's easier for me because of my personality, maybe my personality is such as it is because I've never been good at making others feel comfortable over a long term interaction.  I have difficulty keeping what I see to myself, and worse, I present what I see in ways that seem to make people feel like I'm telling them they are stupid because to me it's so obvious, or I think it's obvious. So I learned to keep interactions short and sweet.  Watch reactions carefully.  When the tension rises, it's time to go.

    This election was, in many ways, utterly predictable to me.  I see the fear rising everywhere.  Just look at one gauge, the rising gun sales here in the U.S.:


    • 19.1 billion 2008
    • $27.8 billion 2009
    • $33.4 billion 2011
    • $37.7 billion 2013
    • $43.0 billion 2014
    • $49.3 billion 2016


    (from Firearms and Ammunition Industry Economic Report 2016, graph on page 7)

    I see that as a fear meter.  Especially when portrayed as a bar graph, which takes more trouble than its worth to copy from the pdf document.

     Human beings -- the species -- are not the most wonderful creatures on this planet.  Especially when they are herded and afraid.  And they are being herded.


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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by dleet86 on Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:32 am

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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by Ren's View on Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:10 pm

    Like I asked above, whose bright idea was it to invent the first city?  I think that would be a good one to forget.

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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by ogun on Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:53 am

    I wish I could buy the fear angle on what just happened in the 'good old US of A'. Like you from beginning to the bitter end I too found it utterly predictable, in fact I believe I said as much before trumpkopf won the nomination in some thread on the T. Hartmann's forum. We all knew Sander's would get gerry rigged out, just like E. McCarthy did in (what was it?) 68, whether or not we wanted to admit it at the time. And we all knew that trump was channeling G. Wallace in his bid for the cat bird seat and would/could very well win the nomination and may actually make a some kind of reasonable run at the White house. 
    The trump ticket ran a blatantly straight ahead white nationalist campaign and won all the marbles with it.

    I can see how fear can be argued for, but to me I saw that there was something fundamentally different going on in this election. The Tuesday morning of final voting when I got out of bed I could feel that trump was going to win, don't ask me how I knew but I did, I just felt it. None the less shaking off my fear I duly did my duty later in the day and stopped in to cast my ballot.
    Now I live, have lived and owned for neigh on 30 years in this same small community that has grown to what is now 35 hundred people. We're small enough that if we don't know each other by name we recognize each other by sight (if you catch my drift) and nod hello. Generally a friendly small town. So I wander down to put my vote into the box and is my want I stop first at registry desk because even though I've been a registered voter here for 30 years I always stop to say hello and make time for (what seems like always) the nice ladies that sit at what has to be a very boring job in this part of the woods. I didn't get two words out of my mouth before there was this hulking bull of a man in my face demanding to know what I was doing there and what I wanted. Stepping back and eyeing him up and down trying to figure if I had ever seen him before and he gets back in my face demanding again what I was doing there. I'm too old for tit for tat bs so I say voting and yes I'm registered............over there I get pointed.
    Maybe I mistook his intent. I must have been making time with his mother or his lover at the registry table.

    There was something fundamentally different about this election ren. and it wasn't fear that was the driving force.
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by Ren's View on Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:21 am

    I would love to hear what you think the driving force was (probably still is, I don't think the election relieved the pressure of any boils).  I get tired of hearing myself talk.

    I have my way of self deluding.  Usually starts with my feelings and then I try to make sense of them.  I am well aware that I create stories that are little more than fictional novels. 

    I have gone to great lengths to isolate myself from the majority of people and especially from where they congregate in the centers of culture, the cities.  Maybe that isolation feeds my misperceptions out of which I create a mistaken narrative.  More than any other reason I isolate myself because of the feelings I read -- through my own feelings -- when I'm around people.   They can be actually painful to read for me. Maybe fear is the wrong translation for what I read, which is what I read when I encounter a bully.  Maybe that bully isn't really afraid.  Maybe it's something of a different order, on the order of a sociopathology.

    "The government is the most successful group of gangsters" -- Alan Watts

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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by dleet86 on Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:33 am

    Ren's View wrote:
    ogun wrote:Yep, every once in a while when I'm in the mood I too will try to reach a body on what is self evident with even the most casual of glances of the condition, the dead end the human has boxed themselves into. On the ways they've been lied to. On the ways they've been herded. On the needless mindless bullshit that consumes their every day lives.
    And almost every time it ends up the same. 
    It must be me.

    I don't know ren., maybe I'm not fit company right now as this last election seems to have put my mind into places I thought was left behind long ago.

    I'm not fit company either.  Haven't been for many years now.  I've learned to enjoy my own company.  Maybe that's easier for me because of my personality, maybe my personality is such as it is because I've never been good at making others feel comfortable over a long term interaction.  I have difficulty keeping what I see to myself, and worse, I present what I see in ways that seem to make people feel like I'm telling them they are stupid because to me it's so obvious, or I think it's obvious. So I learned to keep interactions short and sweet.  Watch reactions carefully.  When the tension rises, it's time to go.

    This election was, in many ways, utterly predictable to me.  I see the fear rising everywhere.  Just look at one gauge, the rising gun sales here in the U.S.:


    • 19.1 billion 2008
    • $27.8 billion 2009
    • $33.4 billion 2011
    • $37.7 billion 2013
    • $43.0 billion 2014
    • $49.3 billion 2016


    (from Firearms and Ammunition Industry Economic Report 2016, graph on page 7)

    I see that as a fear meter.  Especially when portrayed as a bar graph, which takes more trouble than its worth to copy from the pdf document.

     Human beings -- the species -- are not the most wonderful creatures on this planet.  Especially when they are herded and afraid.  And they are being herded.  
    They will be afraid soon when they come out of the state of confusion they don't even know   they are in.
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by Ren's View on Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:20 am

    dleet86 wrote:They will be afraid soon when they come out of the state of confusion they don't even know they are in.

    I suspect that what I see as "the level of fear" as being on the rise is because I have this unshakeable sense that subliminally people are aware they are in a state of confusion, most of the time, even while they are covering it up with bluster and knowingness.  Their responses are a kind of variety of efforts to convince themselves they are not.  They often  do this by creating and buying into narratives that make it sound like humans know what they hell they are doing. 

    I think, in a very broad and pervasive sense, civilized people, being born into various forms of captivity, and having had their self determination robbed from them at birth, live in a deep and throbbing sense of subliminal fear.  Every now and then the civilized veneer begins to melt, like a painted mask, and run down their faces, and the horror of what civilization really is, that is so very starkly real beneath all the pomp and spectacle, begins to emerge.  War is one of those times.  It certainly was for me.  And we are now in a perpetual state of global war.  Apocalypse NowThe maddest movie ever: Why Apocalypse Now is the finest film of modern times) depicts it graphically enough for us to glimpse this, at least for a few moments in a darkened theater.  Then they come out, blink, shake their heads to clear the fear, and go on down those concrete paths to their cars and then back home, perhaps to write an article about why the movie is the finest film of modern times.  And on we go.







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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by dleet86 on Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:37 am

    Then to handle the revenue shortfall after ceding control of the resources generating that revenue a new bill is proposed. This bill rules that there is no loss of revenue so proceed with the giveaway in payment for your campaign assistance.

    This episode brought to you by American Exceptionalism℠
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by Ren's View on Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:31 am

    Parting words: "You can't be investigated for corruption if you've legalized the corruption."

    Now, in the spirit of Kuhn's paradigm shift (The Structure of Scientific Revolutions: 50th Anniversary Edition), that's a humanific revolution.

    Lewis F. Powell must be smiling in his grave.  His oligarchic revolution, proposed in his 1971 memo, is all but complete.  And the sheeple go "baaah".
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by dleet86 on Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:49 am

    Gingrich said because the president can pardon anyone he can pardon himself, therfore he's not subject to ethics or laws.
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by Ren's View on Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:54 am

    dleet86 wrote:Gingrich said because the president can pardon anyone he can pardon himself, therfore he's not subject to ethics or laws.

    But the President can be impeached.  Impeachment is not the same as being convicted of a crime. It is the removal from office generally for some illegal activity, such as treason.  It's a legislative power.  Therefore self-pardoning does not apply.  Once impeached the ex President can be put on trial for a crime committed in office. (See: Impeachment in the United States)

    That said, it's doubtful that a Republican-controlled House and Senate would embarrass their own party by impeaching a Republican President.  And it takes both to complete the impeachment.

    Gingrich is a bonafide scumbag.


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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by dleet86 on Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:15 am

    I noticed a 700% increase in the population growth per generation with the introduction of handguns. Maybe that is linked to industrialization. How many products were mass produced besides guns That were affordable (clocks were not)?. The printing press brought mass educational gains, but generally, the more educated a populace is the fewer kids they have.

    The gop is passing laws to kill off about 36,000 poor every year through medical neglect, so that is their carbon reduction strategy. The poor don't vote usually because their polling places are fraught with hoops and loops like poll taxes. They also, once dead, will not tax the tax base so entitlements will eventually be passe, there will be no poor survivors. The new americans will prey, will not be sick, will work and reproduce per the bible, and produce goods for the rich to benefit from in their next wealth transfer.
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by Ren's View on Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:04 am

    Nature bats last, not the GOP.
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by dleet86 on Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:40 am

    We have discussed the interconnectedness of nature as a part of ecology as a whole. I think maybe we've touched on history as showing there are no small events. Heat transfer has a similar bigger than expected effect and sometimes a smaller effect than expected. When your home or room is too hot and you open the doors and windows the room cools off but you do not let all the heat out. All the furnishings, floorings, wall coverings, and closeted belongings are still the heat that the whole room was before you open the doors. All we've done is let the air our, the hot air. Air is only one heat or gas. Liquid heat in radiators, solid in electric elements, ovens, and fireplaces after the fire is out are all sources of heat.  
    If anyone thinks we wasted all the heat we already paid for by letting the overheated air out is mistaken. The heat still present as individual engines can be thought of as an infrastructure, or community, or identity (The closet occupants are sometimes loud members and need to come out every once in awhile to prove they're still hot).
    I just aired my apt out and my mind wondered so this new metaphor seems pretty flexible. I'm thinking wealth transfer instead of heat transfer, and Gini ratios, Eccles, Keynes, FDR, and Unions instead of solids, and of course the 1% is the hot air and overly heated wealth atmosphere to mix too many metaphors. The infrastructure initiated by Ike* was an investment in a solid base that could maintain stable conditions (or temperatures in the heat transfer meme). Furniture wears out and roads degrade. To get the full benefits of a home vs an empty room with no furniture or closets, or a country with no roads or bridges is easy unless the owners think the home is only a rental that they never visit anyhow if they even know it is there. They also think if all these new taxes, like the hot air out the window, is a loss to all of their wealth, but like hot air, the essence is still there in all the heat and value absorbed by the solid Americans, and liquid Americans with flexibility to heat things, explore, and play in more venues all the time.  There are some hot air members aware of the concentration of interest in only air (aka financial money shuffling products involved in a fiat currency infrastructure). Hot air balloon owners know the meaning of bubbles or balloons and control their use. 
    Scandinavian countries don't get overheated so often and their windows and doors need not open to release pressure or in the case of the USA let those outside freezing get a chance to warm their hands, but then most of the people are already inside. The human generates 150 BTUs of heat every hour. We are engines of heat and all of us have value.

    Amy wanted to go to our local 2nd hand store and I needed some bowls and glasses too. It is staffed with special needs folks and almost all there had Down's syndrome. They do a great job. Many people did not know that when Family Guy had a down's syndrome character in a script that it was played by an actress with down's syndrome and she thought the part was great. The cashier was not special needs but was young and maybe a college or high school kid. So much good and so many benefits come from this place and nowhere in the whole enterprise or transaction processes is profit a consideration. Non-profits maintain society and culture if a culture is still around.


    How much benefit comes from this place and it has nothing to do with profit.
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    Re: The Structure of a Humanific Revolution

    Post by Ren's View on Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:52 am

    Your metaphor speaks to the ecological language I like to think and talk in these days.  That language is a systems approach to thinking, which is an attempt -- still abstract, of course, because we humans cannot remove ourselves from the direct experience and do thinking without becoming abstract about the experience itself -- to become inclusive of everything that nature does without bothering with human abstractions and metaphor creating, in the experiential here and now.

    Like your home and its contents that soak up and therefore potentially store energy when you pump heated air into your home and heat up its air as well as its contents so you can live in a cold climate, the oceans and all the biology of the biosphere has been soaking up and storing the energy that comes into the atmosphere from the sun, some of which gets trapped, like radiant heat gets trapped after coming through the glass of a greenhouse, due to the characteristics of a recent human-based accelerated release of previously stored CO2 from the fossil fuels it has used to enable an expansion of its species into niches the species was not evolved -- strictly biologically speaking -- to live in.  In other words: A naked human running around would have a rough go of it even here, in our relatively benign climate, without our evolved use of fire to heat the homes we build to enable our survival.

    The interesting thing to consider about the earth as a heat sink is this: the storage process has its own set of interactions that can, and apparently do, stimulate unforeseen feedback loops.  One of those feedback loops is triggering the release of other greenhouse gases (like CH4) that can further act to keep the radiation from reflecting back into space, thus heating up the "house" to even higher degrees, thus stressing the existing heat sinks, like the oceans and the great forests that once used to grow where human mono crops that feed its recent hockey stick rise in population are now growing.

    I heat my house with a wood stove.  Yes, it heats the air around stove when its burning the wood. It also provides radiant heat that goes directly into me and my surroundings, which then go on to radiate heat, heating the air around it.  According to physics, that radiant heat is about 20 percent more efficient than pumping hot air into the house and trying to heat up all those elements through heat transfer in that manner.  Thus, like this morning, when I'd let the fire burn out and the wood stove was nearly cold when I got up, the house was still comfortable and warm, though it was in the thirties outside.

    Heat from the sun is not hot air pumped into the earth.  It's radiant heat.

    The problem with our playing around in the abstract is we tend to confuse ourselves and begin to convince ourselves to believe we are talking about reality.  This is true of all abstraction, including the language of ecology.

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