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    Parallels of Fictional figures and Trump

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    dleet
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    Parallels of Fictional figures and Trump

    Post by dleet on Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:05 pm

    Trump's fictional doppelganger Olberman covers many, and most should be familiar. Manchurian, It Can't Happen Here, Charles Foster Caine, Lonely Rhodes are a few he suggested. I had already nominated Custer for his self-promoting  celebrity obsession, and his militaristic  bombastic  attitude that was not a campaign, but normal, just like Donald.
    Woops, Olberman's choices were fictitious, Custer was not, Mussolini was not, Hitler was not, Franco was not, Putin is not, Kim jum il is not. Many horror stories in history do not seem horrific at the beginning of whatever historic tragedy befalls the victims. 1939's refusal of Jewish refugees was not very Christian, either.

    There are some fictional clowns in various satirical send-ups like Mash and Catch-22. An author coming up with a Trump character in a novel, if written identically as Trump's bio reads, would any publisher back it if it was not a spoof or satire? I dunno...

    However, Custer and Caine's stories had happy endings.
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    Re: Parallels of Fictional figures and Trump

    Post by dleet on Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:02 pm

    Another figure that Fred Koch was really looking forward to working with, even more so than his business deals with Hitler, Stalin, and Mussolini was Franco. This was before Fred started the John Birch society in the '50s at the same time proclaiming Ike to be a communist. Note:During World War II, Spanish leader Franco wrote a semi-autobiographical novel called “Raza,” which was later turned into a film. Using the pseudonym Jaime de Andrade, Franco portrayed a family that strongly resembled his own, including a hero who valiantly fought against bloodthirsty Republicans.   You see, Trump is trying to save the GOP from the republicans and reinstall Koch style fascism.  Raza might be worth browsing in Cliff Notes, unless Trump keeps it nearby to lift quotes from, like he does from Benito and Adolf.
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    Re: Parallels of Fictional figures and Trump

    Post by Ren's View on Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:34 pm

    Are you obsessed with Donald Trump?  Just wondering.
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    Re: Parallels of Fictional figures and Trump

    Post by dleet on Fri Sep 23, 2016 2:40 am

    Hahah, a good one! In the other thread on institutions and healthy? vs chronically ill? a current example is a police force in NC displaying obvious signs of illness, the chosen profession to treat the illness, Mayor, and governor, and state house, are an equally sick institution. The only reason anything came to light was an innocent standby witness, or not hierarchical, but heterarchical. He is bringing more healing than the professionals from the institutional Olympus. The state is seeking to pass laws to prevent the release of video cams showing the police state misbehaving. Prometheus insulted Olympus, too. How many users of cell phones will be chained to a rock so as to become the carrion that Olympus thinks they really are? Just Wondering
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    Re: Parallels of Fictional figures and Trump

    Post by dleet on Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:15 am

    Another comparison could be functioning democracies today like the Scandinavians, are Athens. Then the US, Russia, and Israel are the Huns (or Mongol Hordes, or US confederates).
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    Re: Parallels of Fictional figures and Trump

    Post by Ren's View on Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:00 am

    Now you're getting somewhere.  We can make stories out of that. Throw in a little Orwell to explain word usages, such as states calling themselves democracies.
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    Re: Parallels of Fictional figures and Trump

    Post by dleet on Fri Sep 23, 2016 6:43 am

    I would also include the common fallacy within many human communities of jumping to conclusions.
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    Re: Parallels of Fictional figures and Trump

    Post by dleet on Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:26 pm

    Why is this current case, a guy sitting in his car waiting to pick up his kid from school allowed to be killed for not following orders from police, not an example of a police state?https://youtu.be/2GoVkx8nkSgnkSg Just wondering
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    Re: Parallels of Fictional figures and Trump

    Post by dleet on Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:51 pm

    Tamron Hall had a guest that said the best parallel yet: "A moderator that does not check the facts is the same as an umpire not calling balls and strikes while waiting for the ball to hit the bat so he can instruct the batter to go to first base". 'I agree*'.


    *hmm, a new title for topics? just wondering.
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    Re: Parallels of Fictional figures and Trump

    Post by dleet on Fri Sep 23, 2016 6:01 pm

    Why is the current conflict over a guy being killed after ordered out of his car centered on whether he had a gun or a book and whether the cops were  allowed to kill him? The story is not even considering 4th amendment protections that are supposed to prevent this shit. Just wondering...

    Why was he ordered out of his car? Why is that allowed? just wondering
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    Re: Parallels of Fictional figures and Trump

    Post by Ren's View on Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:25 pm

    dleet wrote: 'I agree*'.


    *hmm, a new title for topics? just wondering.
     
    You can do 'I agree' anywhere.  As well as 'I disagree.'

    Who's Tamron Hall?

    Anyway, you're a moderator.  If there's a strike zone I guess you can call it in or out.  I can't find out if you can start a new topic or if that's only administration level privileges.  I only see what I can do, and that's everything.  Sorry, I'm not making everyone an administrator.  Maybe everyone moderators, but not administrators.  I don't want to see some adolescent get into a hissy fit and shut the whole board down on me.  Of course it's ok if I do that. Cool
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    Re: Parallels of Fictional figures and Trump

    Post by dleet on Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:42 am

    A Perfect Manhattan is a jigger of bourbon with a mix of sweet and dry vermouth added. A Perfect sense of humor might be equal parts of dry and wry*. (which is redundant and a pun, but double as any marketer knows for effectiveness)

    Is an example of institutional transition (failure or evolution?) seen today in the music industry? Spotify, video cameras, and youtube altered the distribution network and the publishing infrastructure. The artists are losers in this transition, but the consumers are winners. Will this be a model of other institutional failures? Just wondering...


    *Rye is whiskey, too, so puns are covered in a perfect humor.


    Last edited by dleet on Sat Sep 24, 2016 4:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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    institutional disruption

    Post by dleet on Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:56 am

    Another change could be in fictional literature if married to artificial intelligence. Chess programs have all confrontations, sacrifices, attacks, and strategies (castle) in an almost default position.
    If human interaction were paired with chess moves, stories or stories' outlines will be already constructed and only the names must be changed. Instead of the Queen, you have Trump (no I'm not obsessed, but cheap jokes are my weakness).

    Another consideration ought to be the needs and desires that created the institutions in the first place. Sewage treatment, mail, music, literature, and more have a place in any civilization, or should.

    Parallel #3 could be the marketing success illustrated in the soft drink institution. Blind taste tests proved Pepsi is preferred, but New Coke failed even though it was giving people what they wanted. People wanted what they thought they wanted and hoarded classic coke in a social parody that was real (armageddon was floated as an equal) . The  Appalachian folks always vote for the GOP even though RFK was behind their ultimate reduction in poverty.

    People hated Obamacare but were all for the ACA, keep govt. out of medicare and more. I was just thinking of The Time Tunnel 60s tv show and pictured Eddie Bernays watching his work and beeming like a proud father.


    Last edited by dleet on Sat Sep 24, 2016 11:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Parallels of Fictional figures and Trump

    Post by Ren's View on Sat Sep 24, 2016 7:12 am

    I've had this conversation about the changing nature of written literature most of my life. Quite frankly I'm not really sure what literature ever really was, let alone what it is.  I read The Tale of Genji when I was in high school, mainly because I heard it is sometimes called the world's first novel, and almost always called the first novel ever considered a classic.  It was written in the 11th Century.  Exactly what I experienced of the actual written work translated into my language a thousand years later is unfathomable.  I did manage to grasp the story line, I think, because story lines are graspable and can almost always translate across cultures.  The art of writing is quite another matter.

    My goal when I finally escaped from the drudgery of high school was to go out and continue simply being a writer by experiencing the world and writing about it.  I suppose in some way I had in mind the possibility of leaving a series of works behind as I went, like any writerly person, because after all that's the inevitable effect of writing, you leave written work behind like breadcrumbs back to your base, and I have, just most of it never published, and in our modern techno environment probably never to be published as books.  So then you get to his idea of a book, somewhere in there, and we still have them. What is it as a technology for sharing stories?  What is that technology for sharing stories really about?  What does changing the technology really mean? What has writing stories that become books become? What is writing, anyway? Somewhere in there is the study of classic literature, which was at one point all hand written.  Then along came the printing press.

    Currently I have a young friend, well, youngish, he's 19 years younger, who considers himself to be well read.  In his mind the image of Classic literature is Emile Bronte's Jane Eyre, which he despises.  The worst novel ever written to him is Moby Dick.  None of the classic literature -- I could give you a long list -- I read growing up ever passed in front of his eyes.  He "literally" has no experience with it.  He was teaching up until two years ago, still paying off a huge debt, now down to around $60,000, from getting educated for that profession, but, nevertheless, he quit teaching because of the degrading effect of the Federal program "no child left behind" on his ability to be what he considers a good teacher. 

    Among the books he's constantly telling me about, he thinks George R. R. Matin's bloated formulaic nonsense (to me) is great literature.  I read a few pages at his house, spotted the forumula, the writing itself seemed vacant and empty, and so I lost interest. I can't even stand the hit television series Game of Thrones  when its acted out.  Just bores the hell out of me.  Any of that could have been written by a computer from my subjective sensibilities about writing.  But others find it fascinating and immersive.  I find when I try to say why I am suddenly labeled an elitist like the "assholes" he worked with at Village Books, a renowned for its quality, privately owned bookstore, while he was finishing up his teaching degree at Western in Bellingham, WA.  He's now pursuing a career writing children's books which he hopes to write around the illustrations of an artist friend of ours, Garth Brookes.  He just sold his house because he is going broke, and he's going to buy a small travel trailer which he hopes to park on a plot of land somewhere.  I wish him well.

    I cannot explain with any certainty what interests people in written works today.

    The books I've read and consider part of my referencing repertoire have no place in our conversations about literature, such as they are.  Thus most of my metaphorical world view can't even be shared.  This is not an uncommon situation for me, by the way, unless I'm around the few remaining fossils who have majored in literature or at least pursued it on their own as I have. 

    The spirit of good writing that I feel when I read what I consider to be genuinely good is not a living, breathing fact.  It's at best an artifact. At worst of fantasy of my own making. We now have dead or dying, from funding starvation, literature departments in most of our universities.  But writers are being churned out somewhere that learn the formulas that are spewed out for movies and television stories.  Which, I was told, in the MFA program I started back in the last years of my marriage, 1980 or so, was the future of writing. The writing teacher who told us that was Annie Dillard. Invent a formula, was the new vision, publishing is then guaranteed.  Otherwise look forward to a life of poverty.  Good literary agents and editors can fix your hackneyed writing style if need be.  We don't need no Shakespeares or Dostoevskys anymore.
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    Re: Parallels of Fictional figures and Trump

    Post by dleet on Sun Sep 25, 2016 4:36 am

    Tell your teacher friend if he has any kids or colleagues with kids that Universities are free in many Euro countries for those majoring in English Lit no matter what country they are from*. 2 or 3 years of free international education offers a very good foundation for whichever way one's interests diverge or converge, and at a great price that also affects the outcome of the education (debt worries can confuse or override rational thought).
    * Education is the primary goal of European Universities, not football teams and profit. Diversity in the student body of English Lit was deemed to be beneficial to all, including the international language aka English.
    I got a Chomsky e-mail on language evolution but haven't read it yet. Some recent challenge to his language and communication theory surfaced and is getting attention.
    Before written communication, there was oral storytelling and discussion like at the forum, which I visited in Rome. I was trying to imagine how such interactions proceeded and paid homage to Socrates. I know he's Greek, but these were parallel advanced civilizations at the time.
    I saw formulas in popular fiction so often it prompted the Chess Program analogy. Tom Robbins' "Still Life with Woodpecker" was a new departure for me and I enjoyed it. I bought "Another Roadside Attraction" in a used bookstore but haven't read it, yet.
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    Re: Parallels of Fictional figures and Trump

    Post by dleet on Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:03 am

    I was seeking another parallel or comparison to an analysis of contemporary politics 2016. I was thinking of a forensics medical examiner, like Quincy for media's death in the family, aka journalism. What killed it, and was it 1st-degree murder or 1st-degree manslaughter? I could likely only stomach a forensic exam for a short time before I would heave, similar to the feelings I have seeing the trump fans' pov of the debate results. Trump obviously won, they say. "Obama could show his birth certificate," they say, "He did," the media say, "No not a real one," they say. The death of common sense seems worthy of a memorial service or silent prayer. I don't know how atheists hold funerals, if they do, and if so, why? A party in one's honor would be better than talking to nobody with your eyes closed, imo.
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    Re: Parallels of Fictional figures and Trump

    Post by Ren's View on Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:57 am

    I think it's possible that the idea that journalism was once this bastion of rational objectivity may be another of those illusions that the Age of Reason spawned as part of the liberal creed.

    Insightful people have always recognized that people see through ideas as much or more than they see through objective, logical reason.  Even Darwin noticed that when he brought the logic of Malthusian geometric population dynamics to the study of nature, out of which came his theories of evolution.  As it turns out, despite the success of those ideas in terms of helping us to develop our biological understanding of all sorts of species and their interactions with each other, the idea of humans as being somehow magically apart from all that still predominates the thinking of our species.

    I have not had the stomach to listen to the details of what Trump followers are saying about that so-called debate.  I think I can predict what they will say.  I've read many of the left's responses.  It's sufficient to know how the right would respond.  They are predictably binarily opposed.

    And to think, back in high school some of my teachers who read my essays and thought: maybe this kid has some sense of logic... then logically thought: the kid might be a good member of a debate team... and then tried to get him to join.  I don't do debate.

    By the way, re your previous post, that Chomsky-related issue about the evolution of cognitive linguistics and what those who have followed his lead are now seeing as possibilities for how we create language is a fascinating study in paradigm shifting, not to mention the imaginative possibilities these new views suggest.  Way more exciting than Skinnerian behaviorism ever was to me.
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    Re: Parallels of Fictional figures and Trump

    Post by Ren's View on Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:10 am

    So, as a kind of follow up to my above post, in my morning's random internet link jumping I ran across a link to this op-ed article: Sympathy for the Donald.

    Now you should be able to guess that coming from the NYTimes it will have a certain slant towards a certain idea-seeing type of reader.  Next, if you look at what group has taken to calling Trump "The Donald," you can also pretty well figure out the idea slant of the author and the sense of audience he has in mind when he writes his version of sympathy.  It will then become relatively undisguised sophisticated humor for a certain group's sensibilities, once you recognize that it actually is humor, and you, the reader, recognizing all this, can feel superior in your knowledge that the stooges who support Trump will not either understand it, nor appreciate it.



    How about that for paralleling a fictional character with Trump?
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    Re: Parallels of Fictional figures and Trump

    Post by dleet on Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:29 pm

    They both start with a D and some think that one of the Ds is possessed. One of his favorite Mussolini quotes is something about better to have lived-- and look at that last word if read backward. And and he keeps his quote book in the bathroom near the mirror so it's always reversed. Is it in a satanic code? Or just the Mobius strip strikes again.

    I was thinking of comparisons of the two candidates in various similes. Trump was a Jackson Pollock before anyone knew what abstract expressionism was and Hillary was a Grant Wood paint by number.

    Or Hillary was a digital Gershwin Rhapsody (Trump voters said she sounded rehearsed or canned) and Trump was a bootleg Zappa free riff (He doesn't need to rehearse, he's Donald and it's music) on 33 1/3 that got bumped to 16 then reset to 33 but over corrected to 45 before the last question at 33, but most had no idea what instrument he was playing.

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